Timing and other problems

[87mefull]

My car still isn't running right. Still hard to start and runs different all the time. Generally it changes the idle alot, shudders a little bit when coming to a stop and at different rpm ranges, and sometimes randomly the idle will start surging at a light. It also sometimes idles and bogs down to the point of almost stalling out. The car starts to runs better sometimes when its been running for a while though, the problems noted are really bad when the engine is cold. Gas mileage is still really bad, I average 9 mpg in the city.

I've replaced the egr valve, egr position sensor, and egr solenoid which all failed, resulting in code 34. Here's the codes I still get (44,43,44,43,and 49) and thats the order I get them in KOER & KOEO. IAC works fine and the car stalls right away when I unplug it. Both 02 sensors are a week old, I replaced both at the same time I replaced the egr system. Injectors are fine and the fuel filter has been replaced. The plugs were replaced but were white, most likely from the vacumm leaks caused by the egr valve. No new vacumm leaks that I could find, even spent awhile in a family friend's garage with the car running on a lift searching for any leaks I could have missed. No codes for the TPS (did the wot test) eventhough its directly connected to the egr valve.

Yes, I am planning on correcting the timing, I would have fixed it allready but the shop I took it to have it done in January refused to work on my car. They did do it correctly (guy works on and has owned several old panthers) then as the car ran great for awhile, just in the last month it started having alot of problems. I bought a good advance timing light, but I don't know if I should replace the TFI module since it was fine after they fixed it. Doesn't usually when the module goes, your car will just stall out or not start randomly?

Also, can I run 14* timing on this motor since I'm going to correct it? I don't expect for this car to be a rocket but a boost in horsepower would be nice.

[mrltd]

If the TFI dies, the car will not run. If it doesn't ping, 14 is fine.

Hmm, sounds like you have wiring problems. Check the grounds and all the wiring around the engine for cuts, melts, etc.

[88grandmarq]

code 49 is "SPOUT signal defaulted to 10 degrees BTDC"
several things could cause this; your spout plug is loose, missing or corroded and not making contact. the TFI module is faulty or you have a wiring problem somewhere on the SPOUT circuit. there is also an off chance the ECM is faulty.

code 43 is 02 sensor lean at WOT. it's possible this code is being generated because of the SPOUT Problem.

Code 44 has to do with the secondary air injection system. It really has nothing to do with how the engine is running.

I would re-set the trouble codes by pulling the negative battery cable and stepping on the brake pedal. drive the car for a 100 mile or so and see if any of the codes come back.

[87mefull]

I was thinking of wiring problems also, maybe even a bad ecm. Sometimes I could get the car to run fine and get good gas mileage if I unplugged the battery, reset the ecm, then drive the car. However, as soon as I would let it sit maybe even only for two minutes and then restart it again, same problems returned.

[nitroracer]

I have a problem with my car where it stumbles. Its most notceable at the top of the rev-range, right before a shift. It also missing just going down the road, but with no pattern. I have replaced a bunch of things, sensors, distributor, wires, etc - My last try is another engine harness, but itll be old and cracked too I bet...

[88grandmarq]

Matt... check the wires going to the igntion coil. I had all sorts of running problems with my silver car. I discovered the red, power wire going to the coil had about 3 strands holding on. A quick trip to the pull a part and I found a pig tail in good condition and spliced it in. car ran much better and fuel mileage picked up a tad too. also try swapping in a known good ignition coil, if you havent already done that.

changing the entire engine harness would be a huge pain and probably wouldnt solve your problem.

[nitroracer]

I was thinking that was my last resort... I dont recall if the coil has been changed or not. Thanks for the advice.

87mefull, if you need a hand working on your car let me know Id be happy to come out and help or have you out to where I live.

[85MercPark]

Switch to CFI.




Let the Battle begin....

[87mefull]

Switch to CFI.




Let the Battle begin....

I would go to carb if I needed to, although I like the SEFI system since its surprisingly smooth after 20 years and 130k. I can tune a carb and it seems like a carb would fit the old pushrod 302 nicely. Its my preference though, I can't say one is better than the other. I don't have anything against CFI either since it seems like its similar to GM'S TBI. Its a decently reliable efi system, only thing was it didn't like changes in the weather. Plus, it could take some neglect and abuse.

As for my car, I did get a chance to look at some things today, but I didn't have much time to do really much. I found some exposed wires by the main wiring harness and friction tape that disentengrated after 20 years. The ground for the negative battery cable was also mounted in the wrong spot , too close to where the grounds/positive cable were. I didn't even notice it was until I looked at an underhood picture. I cleaned the spout connector and tfi module connection with some electronic cleaner, friction taped anything exposed, and checked for shorts or bad grounds.

It ran much better after I did this and the car had plenty of power, but it was a cool night. Gas mileage varied from 12 to 15mpg, but it was stop and go city driving 0-35mph. Timing may still be off, I got better gas mileage (15-16mpg) after I floored it once then started driving at the same speeds that I was before on the same route. If its not that, then my cataytics are probably clogged at this point. This was only the first time it was started all day though (read previous post), I don't know how it will run tommorow.

I didn't get a chance to check the timing though, but I'm going check it tommorow and the balancer is marked. Is there a special wrench I need though, looks like it will be tough to get to the distributor hold down bolt?

[gadget73]

I use a 1/2" socket and a flex joint. Those special timing wrenches are usually more of a pain in the ass to use than they're even worth. I dug mine out and it hits everything else when trying to use it.

[Archangel]

Yeah, what Thain said - I did my timing with a socket, a 3/8" flex joint, a 6" or 8" extension, and obviously a rachet, and it was a breeze.

[87mefull]

I got to the distributor bolt yesterday, ended up using a shallow 1/2 socket with a small socket wrench (craftsman mm set). I checked the timing and it was actually advanced slightly to 13*? Must have been something with the spout connector, I tried setting the base timing first just by unplugging it and the car barely ran when I did. Also, I did set the timing with the spout disconnected, so it is set correctly now.

I just left it on the factory 10* btdc for now incase I have any other problems. Had alot of pinging at 14* of timing on 89 octane, so I left it alone. I'll probably bump it up to 12 once I put better gas in it and clean the injectors. Runs great now though with no miss and the exhaust sounds deeper also.

Also, I moved the ground for the negative battery cable to right by the hood latch and ran another ground from the bolt that holds the ecm in (top bolt, not the wiring harness) to the air cleaner arm on the other side. With the extra ground, it stopped the headunit flickering I was getting once it was turned up and its sounded better now also.