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kishy's 1983 Grand Marquis 2dr

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  • GM_Guy
    replied
    I wonder if you can find a splined extension in the correct spline count and size.
    simular; Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by GM_Guy; 03-07-2024, 05:20 PM.

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  • kishy
    replied
    As mentioned in WAYWO, this car and its engine bay got a quick spray-down with a turbo nozzle on a power washer. Looks a little less sad without the layer of dirt.





    ​Organizing stuff in the garage, I stumbled upon a project for this car that I haven't gotten to yet.
    The '83 has crank-operated vent windows. The cranks are large round knobs.
    A bunch of years ago in a junkyard, I found a '68 Continental with small cranks that look like window cranks for its vent windows.
    I took those with the intent of retrofitting them onto my '83, and tonight I found the pair of cranks.







    Unfortunately, the Panther crank knob has a long snout to reach the recessed splined shaft to operate the window, and the 1968 parts do not, so they can't be used.

    Fuel system issues mentioned recently in the thread are not resolved and I'm hoping to deal with those this year, but I guess we'll see.

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  • gadget73
    replied
    have you verified that the mechanical advance works properly? If its not doing it's thing, that might be the haze on acceleration. Spark needs to happen earlier as engine RPM increases or it won't burn efficiently.

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  • Tiggie
    replied
    Glad it's working better.

    The warm start/cold start sounds pretty typical. I haven't perfected the choke adjustments on mine yet, so I don't have much advice to offer, but you may have some luck by leaning out the choke cap and/or turning up the cold idle screw. So "they" say, the engine should start cold with one pump of the accelerator and no help from us. None of mine work that way.

    I am fighting the same issue with the extra fuel at throttle tip in with my 68. I think my issue stems from running a carburetor meant for the 390 on a 302, and also having been rebuilt by a chain at some point and having some mismatched parts. Try to get the choke fully off first. Then you can lessen the shot from the accelerator pump using the holes on the throttle (lower) and the accelerator pump arm (farther towards center of car). I adjusted mine to completely lean and it helped, but didn't completely solve it. The main jets play a role in this as well. Going smaller will help, but will also have an effect across the entire range. Do you know what number jets were in it?

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  • kishy
    replied
    Originally posted by Tiggie View Post
    That's them. Drop the float level a little and that should help. Also be very sure the little holes in the top of the boosters are open. They are air bleeds, and if they are blocked you get a similar result. The extra fuel from the leaking boosters is contributing to the lack of idle control.
    Ding ding ding, that did it. Convinced the float to sit a little lower and got the bowl level to spec (0.801" wet) and those holes stopped dribbling fuel. Now, on the lowest idle, if I crank a mixture screw in, it threatens to stall pretty aggressively. That's progress.

    Originally posted by GM_Guy View Post
    Did you poke a wire into the holes and blow 'em out with air when you had it disassembled?
    The other thing about little apparent change is its an emmisions era carb, ford probably did the same thing gm did, the idle mixture passages are smaller in an emmisions q-jet so you don't get the same range of adjustment as you would with a pre smog era carb.

    Then drop it lower. Won't hurt to try, just the nuisance of having to take the air horn off again. No float height spec in the repair kit leaflet? As you drop it, pay attention to the car going lean when you are full throttling it (running the bowl dry).
    No wire into any holes, but yes minor pick use, air use and liberal amounts of cleaner. I don't think anything is blocked. As above, corrected the excessive rich condition, but it isn't completely usable yet.

    Originally posted by gadget73 View Post
    fuel level in the bowl is somewhat dependant on pressure, so if that pump is overly enthusiastic it may be right "by the book" but in practice the fuel level ends up too high. The static height really isn't whats important, its the fuel level that matters, but most things don't allow you to check that so it just has to be inferred.
    I think the pump is fine in terms of pressure. There is probably a minor machining defect or surface imperfection in the new seat which doesn't allow it to seal nicely. Running the old parts seems pretty harmless.

    The fuel level can be, and was checked by cranking the engine with the lid just sitting on top of the carb to catch the spray, then lifting it off to measure. I got it pretty much perfect to spec this time, which did require some considerable float bending, but it got there nonetheless.

    I was able to drive it, and have the following observations:

    -I did get base timing to in between 10-11BTDC, however the idle quality at lowest idle setting with the vacuum advance connected is very poor (but quite fine at higher idle settings). Not sure what to make of this.
    -It smells pretty close to correct now at idle, and does not smoke when starting or idling. It does, however, emit a considerable "smoggy" cloud when I romp on it heavily; not a sooty black cloud, but just a gross gray "1980s summertime in LA" cloud.
    -It will restart when warm effortlessly and in what sounds like less than a full revolution. Bump the key, idling, no fuss. A mostly-cooled start requires both a pedal push as well as partial pedal during cranking otherwise it'll just crank and crank and crank.
    -It has oodles of power from any speed.
    -Transmission behaviour is just about ideal, so I'm not worried about having messed up TV too much. The carb spacer was replaced and is slightly thicker than what came off, so in theory TV may be slightly lower now. I may or may not fuss with this. I believe I had bumped it a little to the firmer side previously anyway.
    -It will not fall down to the lowest idle on its own at all. If I push on the choke linkage bits manually to make it fall down to there, it will idle at that speed, but will return to higher idle by spring tension from the choke thermostat (I think) if I push the pedal again.
    -idle vacuum on the line that normally goes to the vacuum advance is about 17-18 inHg, at both the lowest idle and next step up. There is better to be achieved yet. However, it's a little bouncy, I'd maybe describe it as about a 2 inHg vibration in the gauge reading.





    Last edited by kishy; 07-03-2022, 01:04 AM.

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  • gadget73
    replied
    fuel level in the bowl is somewhat dependant on pressure, so if that pump is overly enthusiastic it may be right "by the book" but in practice the fuel level ends up too high. The static height really isn't whats important, its the fuel level that matters, but most things don't allow you to check that so it just has to be inferred.

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  • GM_Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by kishy View Post
    -idle mixture screws, and the same problem I had with the Ranger: why do they not seem to do anything? Threaded them in to seat and it kept running exactly the same. Idle must be set too high, but there's no lower it could be and still run.
    Did you poke a wire into the holes and blow 'em out with air when you had it disassembled?
    The other thing about little apparent change is its an emmisions era carb, ford probably did the same thing gm did, the idle mixture passages are smaller in an emmisions q-jet so you don't get the same range of adjustment as you would with a pre smog era carb.

    I do get the impression the bowl is too full. Need to recheck float height since parts-swapping. It's also at what I'd call the extreme of its adjustment so some creative re-bending will have to happen.
    Then drop it lower. Won't hurt to try, just the nuisance of having to take the air horn off again. No float height spec in the repair kit leaflet? As you drop it, pay attention to the car going lean when you are full throttling it (running the bowl dry).

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  • Tiggie
    replied
    Originally posted by kishy View Post
    Are the boosters the inward-facing holes around the perimeter of the inner venturi assembly? Sorry for terminology issues. If that is them, yes, they are dribbling fuel.
    That's them. Drop the float level a little and that should help. Also be very sure the little holes in the top of the boosters are open. They are air bleeds, and if they are blocked you get a similar result. The extra fuel from the leaking boosters is contributing to the lack of idle control.

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  • kishy
    replied
    Originally posted by Tiggie View Post
    I know you've checked some of these. A sunk float, dirt in the needle valve seat, the float hanging up in the bowl, or fuel pressure, assuming it's put together right and the parts aren't defective. I've had it happen on dirt in the seat.

    I am pretty confident you can run the 2150 without a top. It will try to blow the needle valve out with it running, so hold the float retainer down while someone else starts the car. Maybe you can see what it's up to.

    Once you get that fixed, the 2100/2150/4100 can start sucking fuel through the boosters if float level is too high. They are supposed to be 100% dry at idle. That might explain some of the rich if the fuel bowl is full.

    The 2150 on my dentside truck is amazing. Best starting/running carb I have ever experienced.
    I had already wrote most of the prior reply before I saw this.

    Best guess on the needle and/or seat is there's some design deficiency. No debris but it didn't want to seal. I dunno. Resolved as above, original parts went back in. I have another new one but kinda done messing with that particular aspect.

    I observed the "trying to blow the needle out of it". Didn't run it with the lid off but did crank it. That was exciting.

    Are the boosters the inward-facing holes around the perimeter of the inner venturi assembly? Sorry for terminology issues. If that is them, yes, they are dribbling fuel.

    I do get the impression the bowl is too full. Need to recheck float height since parts-swapping. It's also at what I'd call the extreme of its adjustment so some creative re-bending will have to happen.

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  • kishy
    replied
    Studied the float, needle, and hardware. It was definitely all together correctly. Couldn't make any sense of the problem so just swapped the original needle and seat back. Cranked engine with the top off of the carb. Seems to work correctly. Didn't try swapping back the new parts, figured I'll just leave it alone since it works.

    And with that, we have an engine that will start and run, and even kinda idle sometimes. Very rich though. Areas of concern are:
    -the correct amount of choke pull-off (currently just enough to fall off the highest idle setting, and this does not represent much movement at the choke plate)
    -all choke-related adjustments; it seems to have too much choke at all times. Function of the choke thermostat has been verified.
    -idle mixture screws, and the same problem I had with the Ranger: why do they not seem to do anything? Threaded them in to seat and it kept running exactly the same. Idle must be set too high, but there's no lower it could be and still run.
    -ignition timing. I had it around 17BTDC (vacuum advance unhooked, idling just above stalling). Tried to bring it back to 10ish but shocked the hell out of myself fighting (straight across the chest) with a thoroughly stuck distributor and decided I was done for the night.

    But, it ran enough to pull it out to the street and turn it around so it's facing a better direction to play under the hood.







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  • Tiggie
    replied
    I know you've checked some of these. A sunk float, dirt in the needle valve seat, the float hanging up in the bowl, or fuel pressure, assuming it's put together right and the parts aren't defective. I've had it happen on dirt in the seat.

    I am pretty confident you can run the 2150 without a top. It will try to blow the needle valve out with it running, so hold the float retainer down while someone else starts the car. Maybe you can see what it's up to.

    Once you get that fixed, the 2100/2150/4100 can start sucking fuel through the boosters if float level is too high. They are supposed to be 100% dry at idle. That might explain some of the rich if the fuel bowl is full.

    The 2150 on my dentside truck is amazing. Best starting/running carb I have ever experienced.

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  • gadget73
    replied
    I suppose it might be worth verifying fuel pressure but unless something is really bonkers a mechanical fuel pump shouldn't be capable of putting out enough to overwhelm the needle.


    With all that gas in the oil the inside of the engine ought to be fairly well de-sludged at least. Gasoline is a pretty effective solvent.

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  • GM_Guy
    replied
    Got the spring/hanger thing on the needle hanging correctly on the float?

    On A Qjet theres a right way and a wrong way, if its the wrong way you get a good chance of flooding it as the offset is just enough to prevent the seat from fully seating. If you look at it, the wrong way is what most people think is the right way and if eyeballing it, or working it with your finger it looks and behaves normally.. until you try to run it. Flip it around and your back in buisness. The other wrong thing people do in the qjet is hang the needle through the little hole that is on a qjet float. Depending on hole location you will quickly discover it don't go that way, but some floats have the hole in spot that like the first instance, cocks the needle over just enough to give you trouble when you feed it fuel. Most people do that becuase they think its an easy way to keep the needle hanging on the float. And a lot of time stupid little things like that end up giving the qjet a bad rap. Good for me though, I'll always accept a free "junk" q-jet.

    Having said all that, I got no idea how your carb hangs together, so just a derailment for qjet people. =-)

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  • jaywish
    replied
    Sounds like you are on the right track the gas to bowl should shut off when the float rises.

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  • kishy
    replied
    Oil changed. I didn't realize this at first, but it only had about 20km on it. However, it was totally black with a gasoline sheen on the surface, poured like water, and smells more like gas than oil. Yeah, that's a problem. New oil but reused the filter.

    Got the new fuel pump installed. The engine had stopped in a position that had the pump partially depressed, so I barred it over by hand to get the cam turned to a more favourable position for installation. This job is much easier with the oil filter absent.









    Reinstalled the long-absent cruise control servo. I had removed it for diagnostic parts-swapping on the wagon a while back.

    Installed the carburetor, installed the fuel filter, connected everything, and ran to the gas station for some premium. Put 25L in the car. It wasn't fully empty previously, but was low, and the 25L brought the gauge up to exactly 1/4". Being that this is a new sending unit, it's nice to see it working.



    Cranked the engine (no ignition, only starter) with the fuel line unthreaded from the filter at the carb until I had gas coming out = confirmed pump is working as desired.
    Connected the line and cranked (with ignition) for a while, no detectable firing happening, but eventually the bowl vents overflowed quite a bit.
    Took the top off the cab, verified 1) the float and needle moved freely and 2) the needle seems to be seated when the float is at the top of its range of travel.
    Took the float out and adjusted it down some. The adjustment before should have been correct but it seems that the needle isn't seating firmly enough so this seemed like a reasonable approach.
    Same thing, bowl vents overflow.
    Found that if I give it a little pedal while cranking, it will start and run very rich. If I attempt to let it come down to idle-ish RPM (must keep throttle open slightly or it'll stall), the bowl vents overflow, but if I give it more pedal, the vents stop overflowing (obviously the gas is momentarily diverted to the intake).

    I am not super happy about how all aspects of the needle, seat and float are interacting together. I'm not convinced the needle is actually seating and I think it has something to do with the thin wire hardware that hangs the needle off the float. I think that hanger hardware is preventing the needle being pushed adequately into the seat. I may be way off, but that's what it looks like may be happening. I may put the original needle and seat back in just to see what changes, if anything. It's pretty doable in-vehicle.

    It does seem to be overfueling in general but at the moment I'm not touching anything "tuning" related until I can stop the bowl from overflowing. That is definitely a problem.

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