PotM GrandMarq.NET - Panther Headquarters Forum Index PotM
GMN Chat Room GMN's STORE!! GMN's Gallery Please!!
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Something rattling around in my timing chain cover?

  1. #1
    Member Stealthlead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    364

    Default Something rattling around in my timing chain cover?

    Hey guys, I'm having a weird issue which suddenly started yesterday morning and has me concerned. Whenever I accelerate, or decelerate, there seems to be a rattling/grinding/clicking sound coming from the front part of the engine and does not sound good. Its not completely consistent with accel/decel, but its very noticeable. It happens on idle a little bit (is quieter, and sounds more like a clicking) as well as after the car comes off from the initial start a minute or two after starting it up. I have no power loss yet, no codes thrown, not overheating, not smoking, all fluids good, not leaking anything. From what I've read these chains are pretty durable and I'm just over 140k. I believe the chain was also replaced around 90k.

    I initially took it to a friend who specializes in V8 builds and he listened to it with a stethoscope. He listened all over the place, and narrowed it down to the area around the timing chain/cover. When the grinding happens, you can kind of feel it happening in the middle of the distributor if you put a few fingers on it, and its VERY noticeable and almost feels like a grinding. So I thought maybe my distributor was bad, but I replaced it earlier this morning with a brand new one, and am still hearing this issue. I looked down in the shaft and checked the cam out, although its slightly rusted it looks fine and nothing out of the ordinary. I also hand cranked the power steering and water pump, both of which seem just fine (I have no play in the water pump and like I said, am not leaking anything). I also took all the belts off and cranked it (just for a minute). The engine itself sounded completely different (in a bad way) but I was unable to tell if the same noise was occurring.

    My thoughts are that while its unlikely, the chain is about to go bad or perhaps something came loose and is grinding around in there? I feel like if it was the cam, heads, or something in the shortblock I would be seeing either some misfires, power loss, etc. Its just so noticeable when I put a few fingers on the distributor, that something feels like its grinding around in there. I just wanted to run it by you guys and see if you could think of anything else before I go tear apart my front end.
    1991 Grand Marquis LS blog- Mayhem; two 12" Kenwood 800w subs, True dual catback, BBK shorties, cherrybombs, steel top, L/H hella lights, 18" AR Torq thrust, Trans cooler, class 3 hitch kit, more on the way...

  2. #2
    Stow It! GM_Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,422

    Default

    Did ford use the silent nylon (as as GM folks refer to the nylon geared timing set, silent operation, and silent engine when the nylon gear disintegrate). Any crunchy type noises heard? If so, I'd definately be going after timing chain. If that checks out, oil pump would be next on my suspect list. (since it is driven by the distributor, but since the timing set drives the cam, everything down the line would be affected.

    Alex.

  3. #3
    Member Stealthlead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    364

    Default

    Hmm its not quite a crunching noise, I didn't think they used nylon timing gears in the 91's. If it was the oil pump, how would I check that and what other symptoms would I expect? Too bad I dont have an oil pressure gauge -_-
    1991 Grand Marquis LS blog- Mayhem; two 12" Kenwood 800w subs, True dual catback, BBK shorties, cherrybombs, steel top, L/H hella lights, 18" AR Torq thrust, Trans cooler, class 3 hitch kit, more on the way...

  4. #4
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    40,248

    Default

    Ford did use them, but mostly it stopped after 1986. SOme did show up later though, and if it was replaced who knows what its using.

    The easy way to look for timing chain problems is to either rock the crank with the distributor cap off to see how much crank movement goes on before the rotor turns, or use a timing light to see if the marks dance around. Either is a sign of a sloppy chain.

    Oil pumps very rarely go bad. When they do, its usually because some bit of grit got in there and jammed the gears. If that happens, the drive shaft will wind up and break and you'll lose oil pressure. They don't tend to give any warning if anything is going on, it works perfectly until it suddenly is not working at all. If the red oil pressure light is not on, your pump is working.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  5. #5
    Member Stealthlead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    364

    Default

    Thanks for the reply! I did manually turn the crank forward and watch the rotor. It instantly responded, but when I turned the crank backwards, it lagged a little bit, not sure if that is normal. Here are two videos to help diagnose the issue.

    In the first video, I run the engine just for a minute with no belts to help narrow down the problem. You can faintly make out the clicking during the end of the video. I've never actually ran the car with no pulleys before and it sounded terrible to me


    In this second video, that whining throughout the whole video is my steering gear, which has always been like that. You can faintly hear the clicking/grinding behind the steering gear, and especially so during the end. Right where I have the cam pointed at the new blue dizzy, just right on the bottom half is where I'm talking about how I can feel it almost grinding/jumping around.
    1991 Grand Marquis LS blog- Mayhem; two 12" Kenwood 800w subs, True dual catback, BBK shorties, cherrybombs, steel top, L/H hella lights, 18" AR Torq thrust, Trans cooler, class 3 hitch kit, more on the way...

  6. #6
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    40,248

    Default

    might even be your distributor is messed up. Pull it out and give it a look. There is a bushing up there that can wear out and let the shaft slop, and if the pickup is coming apart you'll feel the shaft not spin freely. Check the gear for any damage too, and shine a light down in the hole to see if anything looks odd. Can't really see much down there, but the cam gear should not look chewed and the pump drive shaft shouldn't appear to be twisted up like a candy cane.


    THere will be some amount of crank rotation before the cam follows, its just a matter of how much. The chain and drive rig always has a bit of slack, but it shouldn't be extreme. More than 15 degrees or so means you've got too much play.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  7. #7
    Member Stealthlead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    might even be your distributor is messed up. Pull it out and give it a look. There is a bushing up there that can wear out and let the shaft slop, and if the pickup is coming apart you'll feel the shaft not spin freely. Check the gear for any damage too, and shine a light down in the hole to see if anything looks odd. Can't really see much down there, but the cam gear should not look chewed and the pump drive shaft shouldn't appear to be twisted up like a candy cane.


    THere will be some amount of crank rotation before the cam follows, its just a matter of how much. The chain and drive rig always has a bit of slack, but it shouldn't be extreme. More than 15 degrees or so means you've got too much play.
    That's exactly what I thought it was, because like I've said I can feel it kind of grinding in there, but I bought a brand new distributor (entire unit) and replaced it yesterday morning... still having the issue. I checked down the hole, everything looks normal, and just like it did last time I pulled the dizzy..

    The crank has just under 1/4" of play before engaging the rotor when I crank backwards, but forwards is completely responsive. Other than that its completely consistent. I would have thought if it was the timing chain, I would be experiencing different issues
    1991 Grand Marquis LS blog- Mayhem; two 12" Kenwood 800w subs, True dual catback, BBK shorties, cherrybombs, steel top, L/H hella lights, 18" AR Torq thrust, Trans cooler, class 3 hitch kit, more on the way...

  8. #8
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    40,248

    Default

    that doesn't really sound excessive. Roll it around to the timing marks and see how many degrees it goes if you really want to know though.

    might be worth trying to spin the oil pump by hand. Its a 1/4" hex shaft. A long extension with a deep well socket taped to the end (so it doesn't fall off) will usually get you in there. You'd know if there was something going on, the shaft won't spin properly. It turns counter-clockwise when running. You should feel some resistance, but it shouldn't grind or do anything obviously funny like that.

    The fact that you're feeling it grind is what makes me curious about all this. It doesn't sound particularly bad, sort of like the typical sloppy bottom end sound these tend to get after a while, but it doesn't usually go with any sort of a grinding noise or feeling.


    unrelated, but try changing your power steering fluid if you haven't. fresh Type F trans fluid goes a long way towards shutting them up. If that doesn't do it, about 1/4 bottle of that Mucus power steering snot does magic too. I'd be afraid to run too much, that stuff is like molasses in the winter.
    Last edited by gadget73; 07-12-2015 at 11:55 AM.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  9. #9
    Member Stealthlead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    364

    Default

    Thanks for the help Gadget, I'm going to check the oil pump as soon as I can, and as soon as I figure it out lol.

    I am now totally confused, the car is now making two separate noises; the first almost sounds like a suspension issue, but I'm not quite sure what it is. getting up to speed after first gear, it ticks in the bottom left driver side and gets faster as the mph goes up, but then goes away mostly.

    I'm not totally concerned about that, except that my car now sounds like a diesel after about 15 minutes of driving. It sounds normal for a little while besides the initial ticking, but it starts to sounds seriously like a diesel after I drive around. I'm pretty sure this is a timing thing because I've heard it before a while ago when I did my dizzy. I'm not sure if the chain is bad, or perhaps I put the new dizzy in one tooth off Saturday when I did the install, so I'm going to try to advance it one tooth and see if that helps. Still no lose in power that I've noticed...
    1991 Grand Marquis LS blog- Mayhem; two 12" Kenwood 800w subs, True dual catback, BBK shorties, cherrybombs, steel top, L/H hella lights, 18" AR Torq thrust, Trans cooler, class 3 hitch kit, more on the way...

  10. #10
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    40,248

    Default

    did you set the timing with a light? If not, do that.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  11. #11
    I post a lot... knucklehead0202's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Southern Commiefornia
    Posts
    2,352

    Default

    It's probably your smog pump or a/c compressor. One, or both of mine make a ton of noise. Haven't narrowed it down yet but they both keep working and my exhaust eventually drowns out the noise. Seriously though, check both of those things, they can make some horrific racket. My PS pump was noisy as shit when I first got the car but it was a little down on fluid and I put some mucus(Lucas) in it and the bastard quieted down considerably. In southern commiefornia it's always like 100 degrees so I don't worry too much about how thick it is. Your experience may vary.

  12. #12
    Member Stealthlead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    364

    Default

    My smog pump was removed quite a while ago, and while my AC compressor is loud I've tested all of this with and without the AC belt. The power steering pump is a great suggestion, I'm suspecting it making the ticking noise as I accelerate. The timing issue is really confusing me, at least that's what I'm suspecting it is. Another person had suggested it may be a lifter, and as I'm only experiencing the diesel like racket after about 15 minutes of driving, perhaps when it heats up it bends or something. Still no noticeable power loss, but yesterday when I was driving around it sounded so much like a diesel I thought I was going to have to lift it 12" and give it bmf wheels. Then on my way home, it was driving just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    did you set the timing with a light? If not, do that.
    I'm sorry I must be misunderstanding something when you say set it with a light, what do you mean exactly? When I swapped the distributors, I just made a mark and used a reference point for where the rotor was pointing. The only issue I had, was that the new rotors teeth were slightly off from the stock one. So either I was on the tooth that barely put it forward, or a the tooth that barely had it back from the original position.

    Another edit, but this thread is really making me think it could be a lifter - http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthre...er-tick-Or-two
    the only thing is, like I've said, its not constant and takes time for the engine to warm up before the ticking happens. You even said it right here gadget - 'Its not real common for multiple lifter noises to appear out of the blue in the middle of summer.' Its basically the middle of summer lol
    Last edited by Stealthlead; 07-14-2015 at 10:41 AM.
    1991 Grand Marquis LS blog- Mayhem; two 12" Kenwood 800w subs, True dual catback, BBK shorties, cherrybombs, steel top, L/H hella lights, 18" AR Torq thrust, Trans cooler, class 3 hitch kit, more on the way...

  13. #13
    Proud Owner Of A 1987 Mercury Grand Marquis! miamibob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    South East Florida
    Posts
    4,478

    Default

    He was talking about lining things up with a timing light.


    "Hope and dignity are two things NO ONE can take away from you - you have to relinquish them on your own" Miamibob

    "NEVER trade your passion for glory"!! Sal "the Bard" (Dear Old Dad!)

    "Cars are for driving - PERIOD! I DON'T TEXT, TWEET OR TWERK!!!!"

  14. #14
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    40,248

    Default

    yeah, use a timing light to confirm that its where it belongs. Different distributor may not come out exactly the same setting just by plugging it back in where the old came out.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  15. #15
    Member Stealthlead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    364

    Default

    It is with great humility I post this, but that thread I linked was great help, as I too was using 85 octane gas... lmao. I didn't even realize since I've been here in Colorado, but it seems to have helped with this issue. Anyways, I have noticed the diesel sound but to much less of an extend. I am also still having the rattle in the bottom left end around the power steering which is exactly what I suspect. I want to clarify, you are suggesting to use Type F trans fluid in my power steering pump?
    1991 Grand Marquis LS blog- Mayhem; two 12" Kenwood 800w subs, True dual catback, BBK shorties, cherrybombs, steel top, L/H hella lights, 18" AR Torq thrust, Trans cooler, class 3 hitch kit, more on the way...

  16. #16
    GMN Regular DerekTheGreat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    6,331

    Default

    Type F is indeed what Ford says to use.
    1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
    1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

  17. #17
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lewisville, TX
    Posts
    22,217

    Default

    yes... type F is listed in the manual for all 5.0L panthers for power steering fluid.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  18. #18
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    40,248

    Default

    yessir. I know some people swear it doesn't really matter, but I find that it makes a little less noise using the proper juice vs Dexron III.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  19. #19
    Proud Owner Of A 1987 Mercury Grand Marquis! miamibob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    South East Florida
    Posts
    4,478

    Default

    I use Type F in my PS ('87 GM) - still original pump and as quiet as a "rat pissing on cotton"!!!


    "Hope and dignity are two things NO ONE can take away from you - you have to relinquish them on your own" Miamibob

    "NEVER trade your passion for glory"!! Sal "the Bard" (Dear Old Dad!)

    "Cars are for driving - PERIOD! I DON'T TEXT, TWEET OR TWERK!!!!"

  20. #20
    Member Stealthlead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    364

    Default

    Alright, I had my buddy use a timing light and got it on, which I feel like was part of the problem, possibly coupled with the distributor. Anyways, I've taken it for a few long drives and it doesn't sound like a diesel anymore, and is not making any grinding from the distributor.

    I have a quick question related to the problem, what does it sound like when a power steering unit is going bad? I have always had that normal power steering 'whine', but there is something still going on, and I think its related to the power steering pump, its still that grinding on acceleration, but not coming from the drivetrain itself. I can only replicate it when actually driving, which is why I'm having a hard time narrowing down the problem. On idle and rev its fine...
    1991 Grand Marquis LS blog- Mayhem; two 12" Kenwood 800w subs, True dual catback, BBK shorties, cherrybombs, steel top, L/H hella lights, 18" AR Torq thrust, Trans cooler, class 3 hitch kit, more on the way...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
GMN Approved Links!


www.rockauto.com www.adtr.net