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Thread: EGR Delete --- Can you calm my fears?

  1. #21
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    yep, thats about how it works. Air goes into the back of the heads at startup to help warm the cats quicker, then switches to air feed to the cats. Can't have air going in the heads during closed loop otherwise the O2 sensor readings are not accurate. With modern cats that don't have the air pipes, that pump is doing almost nothing.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  2. #22
    all the CFI are belong to me
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    There's one aspect to this that always gets overlooked, and I'll just throw it in here because why not...
    Secondary air injection existed before catalytic converters, and it serves a purpose above and beyond just helping the cats do what they do.
    The fact that it helps the cats is not the primary reason it was ever used. The primary reason it was used is because adding fresh air immediately after the exhaust valves (e.g. at the exhaust ports, in the manifold, around that area) allows the combustion process to finish more fully (exhaust is only partially burnt), and reduces the amount of "un-combusted stuff" that goes out in the exhaust. I don't have a good grasp on the chemistry of it but my understanding is that the exhaust becomes significantly less reactive after the air injection, therefore is less harmful to the environment.

    Therefore: Cats, secondary air injection, and and EGR are all independent systems, and all provide meaningful benefits individually.
    Cats can also be assisted by secondary air injection to do a better job and last longer (and many early cats do sort of require it because they were designed expecting it to be there).

    If you are hell-bent on deleting emissions gear, even understanding that it offers you no real benefit to do so, secondary air injection is the one you can sort of afford to ditch, EGR is definitely the one to always keep forever, and cats...well, you should keep those too, but the automotive enthusiast community overall seems to see them as an enemy even though they don't hurt anything and only do good things.

    My excuse to the auto enthusiasts who scratch their heads at me saying I put new cats on my cars is that it makes fitment way easier to use direct-fit stuff, and the cost to pay a shop to make custom downpipes competes with the price of the cats...which is true. Internally, I have more reasons, because I believe the science, but some people start ignoring you as soon as you talk about the environment and need a "better reason". I recognize that OP is in Michigan and Michigan is perhaps the US capital of deleting cats, but I really believe this is only popular because many people don't actually understand or care and, the remainder who might just does the same thing everyone else does.
    Last edited by kishy; 07-06-2021 at 10:31 AM.

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  3. #23
    Carthago delenda est Lutrova's Avatar
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    Doesn't the smog pump also provide extra vacuum to the cruise control?

    One reason to run without cats is that thieves can't steal what's not there.

  4. #24
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Yeah the secondary air injection helps with combustion byproducts, but its also incompatible with closed loop operation so it works for a very limited amount of time. It helps deal with cold start / rich running emissions by helping to burn that off, which also warms up that first cat quicker. Given that, I'd consider it overall to be of limited value, especially with newer converters that are installed further away than the originals were which don't need the extra air.

    I'm not particularly anti-emission. The Towncar lost it's smog pump when it went bad, but it still has cats of the modern type that don't need air injection. The black Mark VII was the same story. I never actually removed any of the hardware on the black car, other than the pulley so I could route the belt around it. The white Mark VII still has a working smog pump and newer cats. Until it gives me trouble it stays. EGR works on all my gas powered stuff, same with the other emissions bits.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  5. #25
    GMN Regular DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kishy View Post
    ...Therefore: Cats, secondary air injection, and and EGR are all completely systems, and all provide meaningful benefits individually.
    Cats can also be assisted by secondary air injection to do a better job and last longer (and many early cats do sort of require it because they were designed expecting it to be there).

    If you are hell-bent on deleting emissions gear, even understanding that it offers you no real benefit to do so, secondary air injection is the one you can sort of afford to ditch, EGR is definitely the one to always keep forever, and cats...well, you should keep those too, but the automotive enthusiast community overall seems to see them as an enemy even though they don't hurt anything and only do good things.

    My excuse to the auto enthusiasts who scratch their heads at me saying I put new cats on my cars is that it makes fitment way easier to use direct-fit stuff, and the cost to pay a shop to make custom downpipes competes with the price of the cats...which is true. Internally, I have more reasons, because I believe the science, but some people start ignoring you as soon as you talk about the environment and need a "better reason". I recognize that OP is in Michigan and Michigan is perhaps the US capital of deleting cats, but I really believe this is only popular because many people don't actually understand or care and, the remainder who might just does the same thing everyone else does.
    Indeed. All of the stuff I drive must have a cat on it. I refuse to smell like hydrocarbons after just five minutes of driving and don't want to be "that stinky fuckin' car in front of me" guy. I bought what I thought would be a dual cat set up to allow me to do true duals on my truck. Didn't fit but the truck had to be ready for our road trip a few months back. So I had the exhaust done without a cat as it had to be done. Despite the shop saying "you don't need one" and it costing me more money, I bought a Walker universal fit 3" and had it installed after the road trip. No more stinky truck.
    1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
    1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

  6. #26
    GMN Regular clutch47's Avatar
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    Everything I run has cats except my old Merc.
    Thievery is definitely an issue, as the going rate for a cat off a Super Duty is around a grand..
    I intend to put new cats on Sherrie next year of the 2-1/2" variety, and the current plan is to keep all her OEM emissions equipment intact. which brings up a question.
    Anybody got a new or damn close to it air pump that's fit my '86.?
    All FORD All The Time

  7. #27
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    aftermarket cats aren't as desirable, so slightly less of a theft issue. Some OE cats are crazy expensive though.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

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