New-ish head from Edelbrock....

[87CrownVic]

This is a poop price. :poop2: I got my AFR 185's for $1100 for the pair. These things should be platinum guilded for what they're asking. My GOD.

[1980c10]

they are not stock valve angle which could explain the price since there are very few altered valve angle heads out there for the sbf

[Outlaw440]

This is a poop price. :poop2: I got my AFR 185's for $1100 for the pair. These things should be platinum guilded for what they're asking. My GOD.

I hate to say these heads are superior to an AFR 185, but the price is a little ridiculous when there are better heads available cheaper.

they are not stock valve angle which could explain the price since there are very few altered valve angle heads out there for the sbf

Trickflow heads aren't stock valve angle either. AFR is all stock valve angle, stock valve placement, port location etc. Which is why i prefer to not use them. There are other issues with them as well. Basically they are nothing more than a stock head with bigger valves, bigger ports and made of aluminum. Lots more heads (almost every trickflow head) have much more to offer.

Readings owns me they are not full cnc, though they do seem like a very good canidate for my turbo 351 I'm building

good article

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...ads/index.html

Crappy article for a 347, but that shows a good bit of info and pics to show the quality of those heads.

Having had other edelbrock heads in my hand the work on these heads looks much better.

Heres the pictures of the extreme 185cc edelbrock head from that link, chamber, intake port, exhaust port

Combustion chamber:



Intake port:



Exhaust port:



And to compare that to an edelbrock victor 210:
Combustion chamber:


Intake port:


Exhaust port: (dont mind the header flange that is on these)



Pictures speak 1000 words.

[P72Ford]

The best thing Edelbrock has to offer is intake manifolds.

I would not even consider Edelbrock cylinder heads. I have always liked the AFR stuff. But, when I was walking around spring Carlisle, I came across a booth where there was a a SBF AFR 185 right next to a Patriot SBF head. The Patriot stuff looks to be pretty decent appearance wis (which isn't all that important). The water passages were very clean on the Patriot heads, as far as cating quality goes.

I think that AFR components bring alot to the table, though. For someone who wants to build good power, at a semi-affordable price, and be able to use conventional components (intakes/ headers), they are great.

Not everyone is building a full blown rocket.

[Pirate]

I hate to say these heads are superior to an AFR 185, but the price is a little ridiculous when there are better heads available cheaper.



Trickflow heads aren't stock valve angle either. AFR is all stock valve angle, stock valve placement, port location etc. Which is why i prefer to not use them. There are other issues with them as well. Basically they are nothing more than a stock head with bigger valves, bigger ports and made of aluminum. Lots more heads (almost every trickflow head) have much more to offer.



Crappy article for a 347, but that shows a good bit of info and pics to show the quality of those heads.

Having had other edelbrock heads in my hand the work on these heads looks much better.

Heres the pictures of the extreme 185cc edelbrock head from that link, chamber, intake port, exhaust port

Combustion chamber:



Intake port:



Exhaust port:



And to compare that to an edelbrock victor 210:
Combustion chamber:


Intake port:


Exhaust port: (dont mind the header flange that is on these)



Pictures speak 1000 words.

1. The price is ridiculous for the Edelbrock heads. It makes you wonder just where the hell the money is going if they're charging $2000 for a set of heads, when with their manufacturing capability, you'd think that the price would eventually drop for the same technology after a while. I have a good idea why it never does (inflation, greed, etc, lol), but just the same....I really can't see why this Xtreme head costs over $2000 for a set, as Edelbrock hasn't reinvented the wheel here with this new head.

2. If AFR is managing to make a hell of a lot of HP with all of those 'stock' parameters, usually coming within a few HP of TFS heads, and all of their special features....that's really not saying much for TFS, isn't it? I would use either product, as both can do the job, but until TFS started coming out with CNC'ed heads....AFR was the best choice for an out-of-the-box head, and still is. If you wish to do CNC porting afterward, then TFS is an excellent choice. At the very least, AFR products make a shitload of HP for almost every engine they are bolted onto, and are superior to most everything else out there.

3. To be honest....there's really little point in developing 'bigger and better' products for most of these engines....most of these products nowadays are simply a very expensive way to squeeze a few extra HP out of an engine package (anyone remember the newfangled BBK SSI intake, that really didn't deliver as promised?).

If you want to improve on the design, then build a matching head/intake combo that reconfigures the intake and exhaust ports to more efficient designs, and then spring that on the unsuspecting public. I've often wondered what a redesigned head would do for older engines, such as the FE motor; I have an idea that would revolutionize this engine, but I'm not going to say anything until I can maybe finagle someone into actually building it....the same thinking could go into the 302/351W, since the mod motor is too expensive to build, and doesn't generate the same HP per dollar that the Windsor can.

[Outlaw440]

1. The price is ridiculous for the Edelbrock heads. It makes you wonder just where the hell the money is going if they're charging $2000 for a set of heads, when with their manufacturing capability, you'd think that the price would eventually drop for the same technology after a while. I have a good idea why it never does (inflation, greed, etc, lol), but just the same....I really can't see why this Xtreme head costs over $2000 for a set, as Edelbrock hasn't reinvented the wheel here with this new head.

.

Full agreement there. Like i said, there are better heads for the money. Perhaps edelbrock took a look at the modern GM LS and modern HEMI heads and said "hey..... these guys are onto something"

Before i continue talking about TFS VS. AFR, which first i would rather start a new thread, but if pirate doesn't mind it could be continued here as well.

Just a few questions.

For those that are advocating AFR,

Have you tried other aftermarket heads? Have you ever even used an AFR head? on an engine.

Have you put an AFR 205, a Edelbrock 210cc Victor, a TFS TW 205, a Canfield 195, or others, on the same motor to see what performed better?

Just trying to see who here actually knows what they are talking about, instead of just regurgitating something they read in a magazine, or heard about online before i continue...

[P72Ford]

For those that are advocating AFR,

Have you tried other aftermarket heads? Have you ever even used an AFR head? on an engine.

Have you put an AFR 205, a Edelbrock 210cc Victor, a TFS TW 205, a Canfield 195, or others, on the same motor to see what performed better?

Just trying to see who here actually knows what they are talking about, instead of just regurgitating something they read in a magazine, or heard about online before i continue...

I read alot.

That, and I go to the track alot.

I believe what I see.

Plus, the I hang around with a reputable auto machinist. He does cranks and such for "Billy the Kid" race engines, out of Torrington, CT. Maybe you've heard of them. He is also heavily connected with Steve Atkinson, the pioneer behind Darton sleeve systems (primarily for import engines, and LS engines).

In short, he is reputable, as I said earlier.

I asked earlier, in the other thread, but didn't catch a response.

What exactly are your credentials, if you don't mind me asking?

[Outlaw440]

I read alot.

That, and I go to the track alot.

I believe what I see.

Plus, the I hang around with a reputable auto machinist. He does cranks and such for "Billy the Kid" race engines, out of Torrington, CT. Maybe you've heard of them. He is also heavily connected with Steve Atkinson, the pioneer behind Darton sleeve systems (primarily for import engines, and LS engines).

In short, he is reputable, as I said earlier.

I asked earlier, in the other thread, but didn't catch a response.

What exactly are your credentials, if you don't mind me asking?

Yes, i have heard of him.

You hanging around with him doesn't mean anything however. If i hung out with John Force does that mean i know how to build 4 second Funny cars? No.

Would you really like to know my credentials? First its something id rather not discuss over the internet, but i will, because i dont really mind. But what is that going to proove? I could tell you im George W. Bush over the internet but it doesnt mean i am him. To get a better understanding of who i actually am come out to the track with me next year, maybe i will visit the track in CT you mentioned in the other thread. Or possibly i can go to this "scottfest" thing you guys have and chat with more people at the same time, granted you all won't try to kill me just because i disagree with what most of you say. I'll even bring my drag car provided there is ample space for a crew cab dually and a 24 ft. enclosed trailer for me to park.

FWIW, this was where i last worked. http://www.dragonmotorcars.com/TubularAutomotive.html

A custom header shop, for 2 years, then the company changed hands and me/the new owner didn't exactly jive, so we went our different ways. More or less, i quit.

I have also done a little work(mostly at the track with him doing things like packing the parachute, changing air pressures, troubleshooting problems etc.), and had many discussions with Travis Franklin of gearheads performance in TX. Travis drives a F2R procharged 440 SBF Outlaw Mustang in the NMRA. Although it has been almost 3 years now since i last associated with that company.

I could go on for days telling you people i have talked to about engine building theory/what they think works, why they use certain parts, what parts are best for certain combos, what they use and why, and their logic behind such decisions etc. Jay Allen, Tim lynch of proline race engines, Dan millen of Livernois motorsports, and hell, ive even had a few chats with Ken Herring of texas chassisworks through the yellowbullet.com forum. (the guy on pinks and passtime) So i beleive the info i have acquired in many of these discussions is fairly valuable and have applied it to many engines i have built with great success. I will warn you though, talking to the people i have mentioned, if you want to ask them what parts to use for certain things, what you should buy, and for an explanation from them, it most likely won't be free, as these people are very busy, and know how valuable the information they posess is, so they typically don't give the info out for free, unless you catch them in a really good mood.

Other than that, nothing else you will really find on the internet about people i have associated with, other than that, just a few cars i have helped build for/with friends of mine and the stupidly massive amounts of cars i have built for my personal enjoyment. Im a glutton for punishment and keep spending my money on this stuff, why i dont know, but hey, its fun. I have about 6 sets of aftermarket cylinder heads for SBF's in my possession currently, all from/for possible future projects, just stuff i have collected and/or used on previous builds over the years. Thats where the pics i posted of the edelbrock victor 210's came from. (still looking for a set of BT 4.3 300cc heads though)

Beleive this if you want, read up on who these people are, do whatever you want, thats up to you. You asked and i gave you a response. I will admit though, if i was somebody on this site and a new guy came in and said he knew all these people on a first name basis, i wouldn't beleive him either. So no hard feelings if you don't beleive me, i could really care less, but im not lying.

[P72Ford]

Point taken about hanging around with a reputable person. I don't claim to be a more knowledgeable person by being friends with him. That wasn't my intent with that comment either. When I visit his shop, I see what he uses. Being that I know he is a reputable guy, I believe the choices he makes in parts selection are well reasoned.

Did you do fabrication at Dragon? Design?

I think it is important that you at least somewhat validate yourself, in order for people to believe what you say. Now that you have at least mentioned a little about yourself, I will find you that much more credible.

BTW, there is no drag strip in Connecticut, unfortunately. Long gone. I go to Lebanon Valley (rte 20 West Lebanon, NY). Its halfway between Albany and Pittsfield, MA on rte 20. Its a bit of a ride for me, but the ride on 90 west can be quick, if you;re familiar with that stretch of road.

Provided the weather holds out, I'd like to make it to test and tune this Saturday, and maybe take in some Nostalgia Super Stock.

[Pirate]

Believe it or not, the 210cc Edelbrock head is on a list of favorites for me personally. It is the head I would use if I could get a Boss block to build into a supercharged 302(I'm scared of the stock 302 roller block); the 70cc option allows for flat-top pistons and lower compression ratios in order to pack in as much air as possible.

Oddly enough, if the money and economy situation does actually pick back up in the next few years? I'd love to find a set of the Jeg's/Kaase SBF heads and use those....I'm convinced they are capable of producing a hell of a lot of HP, but I think the high price of all of the parts needed to run those heads scared most everyone off....in addition to the one or two 'Magazine' head shootouts producing so-so results compared to other heads out there....

[87CrownVic]

I kick myself in the ass every time I see an AFR 205 and say "GOD! Why didn't I get these things so I could have a REAL header flange that doesn't have the header bolts squishing the primaries down to nothing!?"

As far as canfields go, I have never ran them or know anyone personally who does, but every time I use them in desktop dyno, everything goes to shit. Very disappointing.

[Grand Marquis GT]

I'd love to find a set of the Jeg's/Kaase SBF heads and use those....I'm convinced they are capable of producing a hell of a lot of HP, but I think the high price of all of the parts needed to run those heads scared most everyone off....in addition to the one or two 'Magazine' head shootouts producing so-so results compared to other heads out there....

Those are practically THE head for SBFs. I love anything that Kaase produces.

[Pirate]

Those are practically THE head for SBFs. I love anything that Kaase produces.

I was hoping they would pick up a bit of steam once released, but I think there's simply too many heads to choose from at this point, and it's hard tearing anyone's hands (or wallets) away from either AFR or TFS for small-block Ford heads....

[Grand Marquis GT]

I bought Kaase heads for my BBF build for a reason.

[1987cp]

As far as canfields go, I have never ran them or know anyone personally who does, but every time I use them in desktop dyno, everything goes to shit. Very disappointing.

With what overall combo? I'd discounted any Canfield head as too big for street use until some recent reading suggested otherwise, then I plugged in some representative numbers from a nearby dealer (http://www.camshaftinnovations.com/SBF170.htm, http://www.camshaftinnovations.com/SBF195.htm). DD is predicting huge torque (about 400 lb/ft for 302ci) and decent horsepower (350ish) with either head and a representative cam (XE258HR).