Cams and torque

[1980c10]

this site focuses alot on bottom of the barrel budget

I wish it didnt

[gadget73]

Not necessarily contradicting you, but according to guys who know lots more than I do, LSA, etc. are byproducts of event-driven cam design and not a design feature. http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,3061.0.html

true, but those numbers are sort of an indicator for the type of power band a cam will make. Just a raw lift number with duration doesn't tell the whole story. If you really know how to read a cam card (I do not), you'd be looking at the valve events, not just the lift and duration figures. The LSA sort of gives you something to look at without actually looking at and having to understand the valve events. I sure as hell don't know what all that stuff means. I can find it for a given cam, but its mostly just numbers as far as I'm concerned.

[1987cp]

I wish it didnt

Yes, and no. I get bored seeing everyone do the same old thing on the same old shoestring budget and then sometimes end up doing things twice because the first way sucked ... or just doing things questionably and not caring (not that I've ever done that ) ...... but on the other hand, making your engine project run you 5 grand and putting an $800 torque converter on a $2500 transmission isn't always consistent with just getting your $1000 daily driver down the road reliably, and some people really do enjoy ricing their junk with hubcaps and exhaust tips. And the way I see it, GMN's strength is its Panther-specific background that (so far as I know) doesn't exist elsewhere on the Internet. Assembling a Windsor motor for a Crown Vic or a Sunbeam Tiger or a dumptruck or a motorhome is all exactly the same in many ways, but the International AC Shelby Owners Club isn't going to know that you need a ES 4.3150 to upgrade your '86 race taxi, that Maremont 339221s ease budget exhaust upgrades, or that your "high output" police motor is actually really slow.

I think the bottom-line lessons go something like this: always to try to learn as much as you're personally able, understand as best you can the viewpoints of folks who claim to debunk common carcrafting myths, be slow to make changes just for the sake of making changes or buy a part just because you saw it in a magazine, avoid obvious wastes of money and know the ways in which different stuff sucks, and then make the best decisions you can for YOU and spend money where it counts, paying as little attention as possible to popularity contests or bragging rights. Know also that there's nothing really wrong with screwing together slow stuff, so long as you know and understand that that's what you're doing and aren't going to be redoing it 6 months from now because it isn't scary-fast.

I still think one of my most interesting revelations is that custom cams can be had starting for like $30 to $50 more than an OTS product from Comp ... so much for my earlier plans to buy a XE258HR to replace my Crane 444211.

[jayh]

I thought this was a good post(from another site)-

"Think of cam designing this way.

The perfect cam would be 100%

The village idiot can get you 70% of that.

Tech lines will get you within 80% most of the time.

A guy with experience will usually get you 85 to 95%.

The reality is no one can get the 100% on the first grind everytime."







typical cost for a custom is $325ish for sadi, $400ish for billet
sadi OTS cams can be had for as cheap as $179 new, or even $75 used
iirc AFM billet cams can be had as cheap as $279new, or $150-175 used

there are a few guys that will spec an off the shelf cam for $25-40. Jay used to do this but no longer does. my understanding is its quite a lengthy wait to get him to do anything right now due to illness. FTI can get the cam in your hands in about 3 weeks to a month, depending on how much feedback is needed, hes a 1 man show just like Jay so everything is through emails, but he will get bask to you ASAP. Bullet can spec you a cam and have it in your hands in 1 week. Buddy will spec whatever you want, he'll give an OTS piece if there is one that will work, or spec a custom setup; I believe turn around time is 2-3 days for him to model a setup
If you LOOK, there are a couple very knowledgeable guys at a couple different sites that if you are patient and polite will get you in the ball park for free

for what most people are doing for an average street build, there is an OTS cam thats pretty close. its almost guaranteed there is a compromise somewhere else for most novice builds


on another note- I know I got a pm from somebody that they didnt think the 190FAC was a "one size fits all" :lol:

[1980c10]

Yes, and no. I get bored seeing everyone do the same old thing on the same old shoestring budget and then sometimes end up doing things twice because the first way sucked ... or just doing things questionably and not caring (not that I've ever done that ) ...... but on the other hand, making your engine project run you 5 grand and putting an $800 torque converter on a $2500 transmission isn't always consistent with just getting your $1000 daily driver down the road reliably, and some people really do enjoy ricing their junk with hubcaps and exhaust tips. And the way I see it, GMN's strength is its Panther-specific background that (so far as I know) doesn't exist elsewhere on the Internet. Assembling a Windsor motor for a Crown Vic or a Sunbeam Tiger or a dumptruck or a motorhome is all exactly the same in many ways, but the International AC Shelby Owners Club isn't going to know that you need a ES 4.3150 to upgrade your '86 race taxi, that Maremont 339221s ease budget exhaust upgrades, or that your "high output" police motor is actually really slow.

I think the bottom-line lessons go something like this: always to try to learn as much as you're personally able, understand as best you can the viewpoints of folks who claim to debunk common carcrafting myths, be slow to make changes just for the sake of making changes or buy a part just because you saw it in a magazine, avoid obvious wastes of money and know the ways in which different stuff sucks, and then make the best decisions you can for YOU and spend money where it counts, paying as little attention as possible to popularity contests or bragging rights. Know also that there's nothing really wrong with screwing together slow stuff, so long as you know and understand that that's what you're doing and aren't going to be redoing it 6 months from now because it isn't scary-fast.

I still think one of my most interesting revelations is that custom cams can be had starting for like $30 to $50 more than an OTS product from Comp ... so much for my earlier plans to buy a XE258HR to replace my Crane 444211.

Very well put. I am just talking about the people that put together a cheapo build with ''small'' parts and then are mad because its no fast.

If you wanna to a cheap build more power to you. My car is nothing but junkyard parts right now other than the gears and exhaust, But I know it is exactly that, JUNK that runs descent.

I am scraping pennies and saving to build my turbo motor. Its has no budget, I dont care if it takes me 5 years to build it. I refuse to compromise because of cost on this engine.

That is all, budget is good. Its cheap and you can have some fun and get some practice modding a car and have descent results and fun lots of fun for very cheap. just my

[89crownlx]

SOOOO Im looking a this cam and wondering what you guys think of it

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=1472&sb=2

WHat say you? it has some interesting numbers to me it seems like an improved B-cam kinda? whatd think? C-4 3000 stall 4.30 gears yay?1
less lift on exhuast but more duration, they do this for ptv clearence? als anyone know what H.O. piston nothces can handle for duration lift?

[Mercracer]

SOOOO Im looking a this cam and wondering what you guys think of it

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=1472&sb=2

WHat say you? it has some interesting numbers to me it seems like an improved B-cam kinda? whatd think? C-4 3000 stall 4.30 gears yay?1
less lift on exhuast but more duration, they do this for ptv clearence? als anyone know what H.O. piston nothces can handle for duration lift?

It is a mild cam which is all done by 5800 RPMs. 4.30s are larger than ideal.

[1987cp]

Specifically advertised to have a choppy idle? Why would you put up with that on a street car?

[1980c10]

So it sounds cool, DUH!!!

[89crownlx]

So it sounds cool, DUH!!!

Ouch brah. I didnt say anything about the sound, I'm simply learning about cams I want to expand my horizons and knowledge and mabey some others members as well, I wanted this post to be a learning experience where we could bench race cams, known and unknown to see what works best in our beloved boxes, i have two crown vics and a 1978 mustang all with 302s, Im starting off a little side business and instead of throwing alphabet cams and single pattern cams in i wanted to look for interesting streetable dual patterns to bring here and see what you guys thought, I want the most bang for the buck I want some power for these guys engines, every lil trick helps a cam is a big part of a combo.

[89crownlx]

So it sounds cool, DUH!!!

you got 4.30s and an H.O. Im sure that cam could use them too?

[89crownlx]

and as i havent made clear, my car is not going to be "street" but street strip think something like dueces car, but I want to build for the best mid range torque not top rpm hp, untill I can do better heads current will be e7s then gt40s then when rebuild Ill go alminum.

[89crownlx]

It is a mild cam which is all done by 5800 RPMs. 4.30s are larger than ideal.

Yeah but I can use the hell out that 5800? with those gears? or no? Im saying if mos 8.8 gears are a mustang ratio which usally had shorter tires and I run like a 265/60 then itll be like 3.73/4.11 anyhow might as well go a lil big and ran a fatas tire the have less gear than I want for my cam coverter combo? what would you use to pull a wheel in a box on the junkyard cheap?

[1990LTD]

So it sounds cool, DUH!!!

I see a few older muscle cars running the streets around here that honestly sound like they're close to stalling because the idle is so choppy - Is that what has been done in that case? They put in a cam for high rpm smoothness but shitty idle?

[1987cp]

I'm simply learning about cams I want to expand my horizons and knowledge

Lots of interesting reading on this camshaft forum ... for OTS camshafts, anyway.

For board members with 10+ posts, there's also a section on custom cams.