Cams and torque

[Mercracer]

Yeah but I can use the hell out that 5800? with those gears? or no? Im saying if mos 8.8 gears are a mustang ratio which usally had shorter tires and I run like a 265/60 then itll be like 3.73/4.11 anyhow might as well go a lil big and ran a fatas tire the have less gear than I want for my cam coverter combo? what would you use to pull a wheel in a box on the junkyard cheap?

I kind of forgot about my post above. Pretty much ignore it as I must have lost my mind. That cam has very little lift and alot of duration compared to better cams out there if you are looking for mid range torque. I really do not like it. You will definitely need gear and a loose converter to utilize it.
The duration is excessive for what you want to do. My recommendation is for a Trick Flow Stage 1 cam. http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail....t=TFS-51402000 A healthy idle without bad manners. It is superior to the Ford Racing alphabet cams. The lift at the valve is .499/510 which works with most pistons. The advertised duration is listed as 283/291 but I have the actual cam card in front of me and it is listed as 275/279. Looks like some marketing games are going on. That is why you should look at lift @ .050 when comparing cams. Otherwise the numbers can easily be skewed depending on how they measure the duration.
If you want to really turn it on, bolt a set of the Crane "Cobra" 1.7 rockers and your lift will jump to a bit over .540. This cam with GT40 heads on a 302 is good enough to put a Crown Vic into the low 14s/high 13s without much trouble providing the rest of the package is up to the job.

[1987cp]

I see a few older muscle cars running the streets around here that honestly sound like they're close to stalling because the idle is so choppy - Is that what has been done in that case? They put in a cam for high rpm smoothness but shitty idle?

Sort of.

From what I can tell, the whole thing is motivated by cams that were considered "high performance" back in the '50s and '60s, back when heads typically sucked, most inlet and exhaust plumbing sucked, factory-issue engines were still competitive in Top Fuel, and before anyone really understood how to control combustion events. If I'm remembering the anecdote correctly, trick-tech cutting-edge racing technology at that time was to use epoxy to fill in the intake runners on a Boss 429 because it wouldn't make any "torque down low" (I want to say it was Holman-Moody who did that?). A goodly handful of guys these days claim that to be complete crap, but apparently that was the best they could do back then with the cam technology they had.

As a result of what was considered high-performance "back in the day", I can only gather that the sound of those engines became in many people's minds a desirable aesthetic, motivating lots of people to deliberately make their engines run like crap at low RPM because they wanted it to sound "high performance". Lousy idle, loud mufflers ... who'd guess your "modified" lowpo 302 makes only 110hp?

After reading several pages about a certain SBF engine that made precisely 2hp/ci during dyno testing, NA, zinging to over 8000rpm while idling acceptably at 600-700rpm, I have little interest in putting up with a crappy, choppy, no-vacuum, barely-running, and otherwise offensive idle in an application that will never see the high side of 6000rpm.

[Mercracer]

As a result of what was considered high-performance "back in the day", I can only gather that the sound of those engines became in many people's minds a desirable aesthetic, motivating lots of people to deliberately make their engines run like crap at low RPM because they wanted it to sound "high performance". Lousy idle, loud mufflers ... who'd guess your "modified" lowpo 302 makes only 110hp?

Back in "the day" with leaded fuel, you could get away with 11:1 compression ratios and hotter cams in factory cars as emissions were not a concern. The Ford 429SCJ with its healthy lift solid lifter camshaft and lumpy idle pushed a nearly 4000# car to the mid 13s from the factory. I would not be so quick to dismiss this as poor performance with outdated technology. I can give you examples of cams from Ford's past which look alot like some of the cams Ford is still marketing. You are not going to get 2HP/CID from ANY factory Ford SB head NA, so you are not comparing apples to apples.

[1987cp]

Ah, but is Ford still marketing any cams that are really any good?

I'm not at all dismissing a Boss 429 (or anything else, really) as a bad engine, I'm just suggesting that based on my reading (not experience), the need to reduce the size of the runners on a race car may suggest an inability to make a cam that could really get the engine to do what they wanted.

[Mercracer]

Ah, but is Ford still marketing any cams that are really any good?

I'm not at all dismissing a Boss 429 (or anything else, really) as a bad engine, I'm just suggesting that based on my reading (not experience), the need to reduce the size of the runners on a race car may suggest an inability to make a cam that could really get the engine to do what they wanted.

Holman Moody still cuts some race cams to the same specs they used in the 60s. The fact that serious Ford Big Block racers are using 60s profile cams is a testament that the camshaft technology was not so poor. When the Lightning pickup came out in the 90s, Ford used a flat tappet marine application camshaft from the 70s instead of using a "new" roller camshaft even though the regular F150 trucks in the same years used the same block and had a roller camshaft in them.
The heads which were epoxied, welded or ports cut off and plates installed were a result of poor port design and not shortcomings in camshaft technology. Changing the shape of the port actually increased the flow at all lifts.
Take a look at a current Ford NASCAR application cylinder head. The port cross section is much smaller than the 351C 4V heads which they replaced. Smaller ports made more torque and horsepower. The same thing goes for 429/460 heads. MPG and others make bolt on port plates. The floor of the factory ports are a dead spot and introduce undesirable turbulence. The port plates along the bottom along with porting on the roof of the port straightens out the flow.

[P72Ford]

It is possible to make alot (which is relative) power, and still have a cam the idles very nicely, which to me, is smooth.

Many times I have watched F.A.S.T. cars run in the mid 10s on skinny bias plies. They come back down the return road, and through the stock style exhaust (2.5" max), mufflers, manifolds, etc, you can barely tell they are running. Standing next to one idling in the pits, the engine is not bucking and jumping around under the hood. They idle smoothly, you talk over them... very civilized.

Granted, the cars are equipped with custom grinds, but the point here is that a choppy idle doesn't have to be an unfortunate side effect for a camshaft that runs good up top.

[Mercracer]

It is possible to make alot (which is relative) power, and still have a cam the idles very nicely, which to me, is smooth.

Many times I have watched F.A.S.T. cars run in the mid 10s on skinny bias plies. They come back down the return road, and through the stock style exhaust (2.5" max), mufflers, manifolds, etc, you can barely tell they are running. Standing next to one idling in the pits, the engine is not bucking and jumping around under the hood. They idle smoothly, you talk over them... very civilized.

Granted, the cars are equipped with custom grinds, but the point here is that a choppy idle doesn't have to be an unfortunate side effect for a camshaft that runs good up top.

Most guys are running carbs and do not have several thousand dollars invested in a custom engine management system. The norm for a mid 10s NA car at any track is a very lumpy idle. With the advent of a power adder and tunable fuel injection it lessens the demands of your cam to control the air/fuel mixture getting into your cylinders

[P72Ford]

Most guys are running carbs and do not have several thousand dollars invested in a custom engine management system. The norm for a mid 10s NA car at any track is a very lumpy idle. With the advent of a power adder and tunable fuel injection it lessens the demands of your cam to control the air/fuel mixture getting into your cylinders

http://www.fastraces.org/

There is no fuel injection here. And there is no custom engine management.

These are cars that run mid 10s on original type bias ply tires. They look showroom fresh. Engine blocks and heads are required to have the right numbers. Engines do not have to maintain original displacement, heads can be ported, etc. A "stock sounding" cam is required, as are exhaust manifolds (althought they can be extrude honed, etc), intake manifolds, air cleaner, etc.

These cars run on stock style suspension. No traction bars.

By far one of my favorite drag racing classes out there.

There may be no injection, or engine management, but there is a ton of money represented nonetheless.

I've seen them run in the mid 10s, but there is a gentleman with a Hemi RoadRunner that is in the very low 10s (10.18?).

[1980c10]

you got 4.30s and an H.O. Im sure that cam could use them too?

Sorry if that came off the wrong way. Just a little joke my friends and I have about all the rednecks that slap a huge cam in a stock motor.

Not sure what you are asking on the question above. To me 4.30's are a very good choice for a n/a aod car. I love mine, they make me smile lol. I haven't done a cam yet because mine is just a play combo. Just messing around to see what I can get out of it and having lots of fun doing it.

Now with a c4 4.30's are alot. It all depends exactly what you are doing with the car, and what you can deal with.

If I am thinking or answering your questions wrong let me know, or if you have anymore questions I will try to help.

[Mercracer]

Once again, this is not the norm. You can not compare large displacement extensively internally modified engines $$$ with a 351 CI mild build. It is also not cheap for a custom camshaft. They are paying more for a flat tappet cam or custom roller cam than anyone here is looking at for a roller hydraulic in their Vic.
10s are not the norm for these cars. There are an elite few who are capable of it. Your post suggests that it is easy to run 10s for these guys. It certainly is not. It would be more accurate for you have said "There are cars running mid 10s" and not "These are cars running mid 10s"

[1987cp]

Just going from advertised prices I've seen ....


Comp XE258HR: $265
Cast core custom HR: $300
Billet core custom HR: $400



Of course, compared to a $150 FRPP cam or a $50 used stock cam there's a bigger difference .....

[Mercracer]

For a little taste of what these guys may have invested under their hoods... A bare 429SCJ block without machining can easily run over $1K. A bare 426 Hemi block can run $3K+ These are the only 2 engines which qualified in the 10s this spring. When I look back at past results, I couldn't find an event where more than 3 cars were running in the 10s during eliminations.

[P72Ford]

For a little taste of what these guys may have invested under their hoods... A bare 429SCJ block without machining can easily run over $1K. A bare 426 Hemi block can run $3K+ These are the only 2 engines which qualified in the 10s this spring. When I look back at past results, I couldn't find an event where more than 3 cars were running in the 10s during eliminations.

They don't all show up to every event. I have personally seen the re Mustang, the Orange Corevtte, and the Black RR run in the 10s. I know of the Pontiac, and also a green Hemi E body that runs in the 10s. They aren't all that fast. Some guys are in the 11s, some in the low 12s, all the way up to the 14s. But low 12s, and 11s is still nothing to sneeze at, especially when we are talking about bia ply tires, with a 5-6" tread width.

I am certain that almost any 10 second F.A.S.T. has at the very least 100K invested. I read the build up of a guy's 10 second Pontiac. He gathered 4 sets of Pontaic RA IV heads, and sent each set to the most notable head porter's he could fine (with experience with Pontiac stuff). They tested them, and he chose the best set. How much does a set of RA IV heads cost? If you can find them. He did a similar "experiment" with the intakes.

This particular guy spent a fortune looking for ways to increase the efficiency of the TH400.

I never said that these were cheap cars. My point was, and still is, that a choppy idle does not have to be a side affect to a camshaft that is capable of silly amounts of power. There are a half dozen examples that I have provided, in one niche racing class, as evidence of this. These cars can run 10s on skinny tires. There are surely other classes out there with folks that have even faster cars, with civilized idle characteristics.

The average guy that slaps together a small block chevy to toss in his G body, F body, etc may not have a 10 second ride that idles approximately stock. Its also unlikely his car will have a custom grind.

That doesn't mean it isn't possible. Its only money.

And before I hear: "this is a budget minded site", etc, etc for someone.... Save your breath. I never said it was practical or affordable for someone on this site to build an engine that makes the car run 10s, but idle stock. I just said its a possibility.

Being a possibility does not mean it is wise, practical, affordable, or any of the above.

Is it possible for the OP to build a 351 that makes alot of power, and idles nicely? The answer is yes.

[Mercracer]

And before I hear: "this is a budget minded site", etc, etc for someone.... Save your breath. I never said it was practical or affordable for someone on this site to build an engine that makes the car run 10s, but idle stock. I just said its a possibility.

Being a possibility does not mean it is wise, practical, affordable, or any of the above.

Is it possible for the OP to build a 351 that makes alot of power, and idles nicely? The answer is yes.

We agree that with an unlimited budget anything is possible. Now that we have that very interesting trivia point out of our systems, let's get back to the build at hand. The reality is that there will be a little lope with a healthy cam. It will not idle like a stock No Po 302 Crown Vic. A little lope does not mean that it will not idle nicely. It simply means that the tone will change from stock.

[89crownlx]

lol chill doods, heres the thing
I got an 87 lx vic and an 89 vic, now one or the other is getting the street/strip treatment, I have a set of H.O. pistons with low miles and nice standard bore truck block, that for the time is retaining rebuilt stock e7s.
I also have a C-4 that I am going to rebuild and put a vlve body/shift kit in torque converter.
No since this is a flat tappet block I am looking at flat tap cams that wil pull hard to about 5500-5800ish lets say,nothing radical once again I never mentioned the sound of the cam or idle, I know smooth idle cams cam make power, I simply have been try to find a good split pattern cam to make the best use of my combo for now, I want a step above an RV type cam, but along the lines of one fat torque across the board but it dont have to be done at 4500rpm due to the fact Im goingt o partially gut and lighten the vic as much as possible.