hypothetical fuel economy / power build ideas

[1987cp]

Certain approaches to engine building could be viewed as sort of turning a SBF into a LS-x ....

[P72Ford]

no, I'm not nearly good enough with fabrication to make that work. Part of being smart is knowing where you aren't smart. Fabrication is an area where I am not smart.

Are you speaking about engine and transmission mounts?

I don't think it'd be that bad.

The engine mounts would be neat, because you'd be able to put the engine where you want it. You'd have some control over your weight distribution, and cg. Having access to a bridgeport would be critical to professional results. Solid mounts would be a little harsh for a lincoln, but it'd be pretty simple to incorporate a urethane bushing/ cushion.

I'd probably design a new cross member, and have it made at a local shop. Obviously the transmission mount location would be based on the engine mount locations.

You'd probably need a custom driveshaft. If you had a yolk for the transmission you were using (4L80E?, T56?), it would be a simple job for a driveshaft shop.

Certainly you would be able to do what you want with the wiring. Things like connecting your factory instrument cluster, (speedometer cable, etc) might prove a little challenging, but you could always make a custom gauge insert.

[gadget73]

well, considering I don't really have access to a mill, and my welding skills are barely marginal at best, I don't really feel I could pull it off in a manner thats reliable and professional looking. I dont want to mess with it if I can't make it look like it belongs that way.

[Lazerbeans]

I have seen 351w powered Mustangs and other Fords knock down 28+MPG, so remind me again why we are putting a GM in a Ford? For the money, time and effort, you would put into a LSX motor, you could build up the SBF of your choice, and in the end not have a stock LSX. Nice engines IN CHEVY's. You want a LSX, go buy Camaro and save yourself time and money.

[jayh]

LSx is a whole new can of worms

there are some guys that have made 425rwhp with stockish LS swaps, thats not happening with a stockish 351

hot rodding is hot rodding, even if its putting an R2D2 honda motor in there with a big turbo

[P72Ford]

well, considering I don't really have access to a mill, and my welding skills are barely marginal at best, I don't really feel I could pull it off in a manner thats reliable and professional looking. I dont want to mess with it if I can't make it look like it belongs that way.

I udnerstand that, Thain, and I agree with your urge to make it look stock. I'm sure no matter what you end up doing, the end result will be good.

I have seen 351w powered Mustangs and other Fords knock down 28+MPG, so remind me again why we are putting a GM in a Ford? For the money, time and effort, you would put into a LSX motor, you could build up the SBF of your choice, and in the end not have a stock LSX. Nice engines IN CHEVY's. You want a LSX, go buy Camaro and save yourself time and money.

I believe you were posting in another thread on how folks shouldn't get down on others, or discourage them from radical builds. Please take your own advice, and don't piss on my ideas. A GM LS engine is superior in many ways, and the potential to build naturally aspirated power is fantastic. To me, as long as the workmanship is good (which is most important to me), the car runs its ass off, and maintains great drivability, then its a good build.

LSx is a whole new can of worms

there are some guys that have made 425rwhp with stockish LS swaps, thats not happening with a stockish 351

hot rodding is hot rodding, even if its putting an R2D2 honda motor in there with a big turbo

At one time I was pretty serious about an LS powered box. There was an LS powered whale on Ebay a year or so ago, and there is a 5.3 LS powered family trucketer replica out there. It ran 15.0X (stock 5.3), with the 3.08 open diff. I think a mild build on an LS (cammed, tuned, supporting exhaust), would be perfect for a box.

[Lazerbeans]

Ok you do that. You re-engineer a Ford to accept a GM power train, its your car, and it would be cool (and I mean that). I am simply saying that it would take less effort (effort that really isn't getting you any real befits over SBF), and less money to do it with a SBF, or if you put the engine into a GM. I had a Camaro for ten years, and as such I have cam profiles and head flow specs for the LSX engines. Running several combos through Dyno 2000 (and as an engineering student I can tell you it all comes down to math, accurate info in, accurate info out) and there is no 350CI, stockish LSX that makes 425 rearwheel HP. At the CRANK yes, stockish and 350CI, no. Heads, cams and tune yes. But that is not stockish. There is Ford 302 based crate motors that make that at the flywheel, so besides uniqueness, what do you gain? And besides I would hope that the LSX is superior in many ways, Ford left that antiquated(but decidedly effective) technology behind 15+ years ago.

And your right I did say don't piss dreams, but I think you should be able to back the reasons for doing things with sound logic and reasoning.
If you simply want to do it, to do it, cool.
In the end I can careless what you do.
And chill its just bechracing.

[jayh]

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1164954

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1192317

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1164459

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1175835

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1158208

some reading for you, there is alot more if you look for it

[1987cp]

Just thought I'd mention, a demo-derby guy who keeps trying to buy my wagon insists that a regular SBC drops in just by drilling three holes to slightly relocate one motor mount. And it seems I just saw some SBC-to-LSx motor mount adapters in the Speedway Motors catalog ...

I have finally got the picture that building a decent SBF requires a pretty good amount of money to fix some rather crappy design features. How cheap can a person score a good Corvette motor, or even a 5.3 truck motor? You'll still have to get a good carb to go with it and a way to trigger the ignition, though.

[Lazerbeans]

Impressive, very nice, I like it all. However you half proved my point; he re-engineered almost everything, and he is into it for $6500 to get 425hp. I would be livid if I spent $6500 and only got 500 at the crank. Granted its stockish, if he is telling the whole story, but you can buy a nice 408W for that and hand him his ass. And if you don't believe a 408w is a runner, just check out the Pinks-All Out from Maple Grove. The finals was a Mustang against a Camaro. The Camaro was a World Champion Super Stock Champion, (or something like if I am not mistaken), and he learned to fear a 408w powered Ford. The 'stang handed him his ass. If the track didn't make him stop running because of his brakes leaking (operator error not the engines fault), he would have done it two times in row. But at least you showed me proof not conjecture. It cool, just not the most efficient way of going fast.

[1987cp]

Why should someone not believe a Windsor motor can be built to make power?

[Lazerbeans]

Why should someone not believe a Windsor motor can be built to make power?

Thats my point. For $6500 you can build great 408w, and all NEW parts, not used. IF you were limiting yourself to just 500 at the crank, you could do it for alot less, and have money left over. Because the stock block, crank and rods will take it. Then you would not have to re-engineer everything for a panther. The links talked about getting pre-made stuff for a mustang, not a panther. So you better get extra $$$ for a welder or someone doing for you. Still not the cheapest way to go fast.

As far as design flaws, tell that to that Camaro on Pinks, or the other couple hundred cars that got their ass whipped.
Actually, do tell, design flaws? Are you speaking about block or cylinder head architecture, or other flaws in a non-performance car?

[jayh]

those are just links, if you dig deeper, there are guys that have done it with 6.0 truck motors, fabbed the headers, and gotten into the 10's for as low as $1600. read all of the links, then do some searching

if you go back to the beginning of this thread, I suggested an n/a 408 with some spray later on, OR a h/c/i 302 with boost. everyone has a right to an opinion or a suggestion

in 2001 I was directly involved in a 408 that went 10.50's@130 and eventually 9.teens at 150 on the bottle. simple combo- 408, 11:1, afr205's, super victor, 1 7/8 longtubes, FTI cam, through a glide. it cost about 10k all said and done.

I do think you can make more power cheaper with the LSx stuff using junkyard/used parts. the windsor will require a $2000 set of heads OR boost; no way around it

no matter what is chosen, its best to get feedback from those with experience

[1980c10]

It's true the benifit of an lsx is there have pretty damn good factory head castings. Find a 6.0 out of a truck for $1000 at a junkyard toss in a cam and springs, intake and carb. Managment set up to run the coil packs with a carb. Your prolly $2500 into for a solid 450 rwhp with a stock heads, and bottom end motor. That means it has the reliablity of a stock motor. 100,000 miles no problem. Spray it and drive a light car to some 10 sec passes for super cheap.

But anywho this thread is about a heavy car going fast and getting good milage.

I really don't know what to think on this one. Small cubes and some boost and a spot on tune, with your cruise a/f ratio leaned out into the 16.1 range is still what I'm thinking.
A really good top end package and it won't take much boost too get into the block splitting area.

[Lazerbeans]

It will take 250cfm to make around 425 at the crank. Summit has Edelbrock's that run that for $1300 or so. Or you can buy Twisted Wedge heads that flow that much, as well AFR's that flow enough to make that range of horsepower, for $1500 or less.
And your friend made 800-900 at the crank to run those numbers, assuming everything was 100% optimized. AFR 205's cost less than $2000, what did he spend the other $8000 on? The builder? Should have it built himself. $10k to make 800-900hp vs $6500 to get around 500-550, sounds like a good deal to me, IF it really cost that much.
Yea, if you wreak your truck or Camaro, and have a car just sitting around to put the drive train into, then yea, awsome idea. But if you don't have a special occurrence like that, that everybody want quote when they want to tell you how outlandishly cheap they can do it, then its STILL not the best bang for you buck. Sounds like Honda guys saying how they can make 300+hp for a thousand dollars. What they don't tell ya is their buddy gave them their old system for free, when they upgraded. Then 3 months later forget to tell you they grenaded the motor, because their stock engine couldn't take the boost. I respect Honda's. I hung with couple guys running hatchbacks running tens in hatchbacks. Nothing stock about those car except the Honda sheet metal. And its not any cheaper for them to run that faster either.
"A really good top end package and it won't take much boost too get into the block splitting area."
If you run 302. A stock 351W will at least 200hp more and it very common for the stock blocks to take up to 750hp on a street driven car with occasional strip blasts. Ford lists the 351W to take 750hp so argue with them. In addition I have personal empirical experience to back this up.