460

[ford man]

The 460 was an option in the 70s in Full and Mid sized cars. Few people chose the extra cost and decrease in mileage as we were in a gas crunch. If Ford offered one in a Panter, it would have suffered the same fate of low demand.
When they were available, the 351C 4V motors outperformed them. In 1971 you could get a 429 or a 351 in a Mustang. Except for the solid lifter camshaft 429, the 351s beat the pants off of the 429s. If a solid lifter 460 with the CJ heads were available in a Mustang, the 351s would have been sucking their fumes. From 1972 to 1974, the 351s outperformed the 460s.
A 460 equipped Panther would weigh 4300+ lbs unless it were put on a diet.
In the quarter mile, it takes 10HP to make up for 100 lbs. That means that a 460 needs to make 30+ more HP to outrun a 302. A little less for a 351W (5-ish).
What this means is that an Explorer engine with an intake change will absolutely destroy your basic 70s 460 with an intake change. It would be pitiful.
If someone is going to go through the trouble of doing a 460 swap, they had better be putting in an upgraded engine or the effort and cost to performance ratio would be shameful.

You make some good points on ford offering a 460 in a panther.

I think you know I'm a cleveland proponent. I'd be all for putting a cleveland in a colony park, if thats what your suggesting.

We might have to agree to disagree on a couple of points...

The '71 351 vs 429 shootout you raised: I think your comparing the 1800 cars produced Boss 351 to the 429 in your comparison. Yes the 71 boss was the hottest thing going that year and would be neck and neck with even the scj 429, probably get it to sixty. Now as far as a cj 351 271-250 hp taking a cj 429 370 hp, I dunno about that. Your 460 vs 351cj in a heavy car like a Gran Torino were they were both available, I'm not sure. If the 351 cj had a rare but available 4sp the 351 cj would probably take it.

On your explorer motor 302 against a smog dog 460 I dunno about that either. First of all I thought the explorer intake was already the cats meow and is like the cobra intake. Second if you change the intake on the 460 from the iron stocker with the egr to a aftermarket dual plane non egr your going to pick up some nice power. I think a straight up chain and aftermarket intake would add around 70 horsepower to the 200 ish 70's rating at least. Are you going to run catalytic converters? The 460 is going to benefit more from a free flowing exhaust. Plus when your comparing a 302 to a 460 you can't forget about the difference in torque. Whats a explorer 302 make 300? Even in the smog years 350-375 was the norm for a 460 without mods. Then when you add the intake and straight up chain your going to be over 400 ft pounds.

That 460 torque is always going to be with you under your foot. Cruising around your not even going to be trying. 460's in the 70's were in much heavier cars than a panther too. About a 1000 pounds heavier. A Mark iv was 5300 pounds!

I'm not saying you should run the 460 without mods to be clear.

[ford man]

I forgot to add you want to limit the advance on the distributer to get more top end out of those 70's smog motors once you do your bolt ons. Because they have a crazy amout of total advance like 46 degrees. There is a lot you can do to reverse the 70's poor factory performance... remove the iron turd intake, egr, timing chain, distributer re-curve, catalytic converters etc. Non smog carb with proper jetting etc etc

[1984colonypark]

i think its funny how everyone jus wants to tell me to find an explorer enigne like i jus have one laying around right? i listed what i have and if your trying to cinvince me its cheaper to go and buy a explorer engine and start over versus the 460 your smoking crack. having a new drive shaft built and exhaust and welding in a set of engine mount points is NOT more expensive then buying a whole other engine. like i said i have the 460 fresh rebuild and its not sportin the smog pistons, heads or cam. and i already have a rebuilt c6 and the fox chassis pan and pickup tube kit.

[1984colonypark]

and i live in florida, there not a emissions inspections in miles. NO CATS.

[Mercracer]

i have the 460 fresh rebuild and its not sportin the smog pistons, heads or cam. and i already have a rebuilt c6 and the fox chassis pan and pickup tube kit.

see i have a very nice 1977 460 factory four barrel truck engine for free ...i took it apart and its extremely clean so i put it back together with new gaskets..

Please list the components of your 460 as is..... This is the first time in this thread where you are even suggesting that it is anything but stock...

I more to say on the matter, but I will first wait for your response. For now suffice it to say you are underestimating the costs related to placing your 460 in your Panther...

[Mercracer]

The '71 351 vs 429 shootout you raised: I think your comparing the 1800 cars produced Boss 351 to the 429 in your comparison. Yes the 71 boss was the hottest thing going that year and would be neck and neck with even the scj 429, probably get it to sixty. Now as far as a cj 351 271-250 hp taking a cj 429 370 hp, I dunno about that. Your 460 vs 351cj in a heavy car like a Gran Torino were they were both available, I'm not sure. If the 351 cj had a rare but available 4sp the 351 cj would probably take it.

There were less 429s in a 71 Mustang than Boss 351s. Engine for engine, the 429SCJ will outrun a Boss 351, no contest. The only reason that the factory road tests do not reflect this is that the 429 was always tested with the close ratio toploader and the 351 got a wide ratio box. The 429 with an automatic dominated the 351.
The 351CJ was not produced the same years as the 429CJ. In 1972, the top 429 was the PI and the top 351 was the HO. The HO trumps the PI. In 1973, the 351 4V trumps any 429 or 460 available. Starting 1975, there was only a 460 4V motor available and it was pitiful.

On your explorer motor 302 against a smog dog 460 I dunno about that either. First of all I thought the explorer intake was already the cats meow and is like the cobra intake. Second if you change the intake on the 460 from the iron stocker with the egr to a aftermarket dual plane non egr your going to pick up some nice power. I think a straight up chain and aftermarket intake would add around 70 horsepower to the 200 ish 70's rating at least.

The Cobra and Explorer are fine for factory EFI intakes. An aftermarket carb intake will kill them in a drag race. Take a smog 460 and put any intake and whatever style exhaust on it you wish but make no other changes. I will beat it with an Explorer motor. There is no intake on the planet which will gain you 70HP. The timing chain change will not help you enough either.

Plus when your comparing a 302 to a 460 you can't forget about the difference in torque. Whats a explorer 302 make 300? Even in the smog years 350-375 was the norm for a 460 without mods. Then when you add the intake and straight up chain your going to be over 400 ft pounds.

That 460 torque is always going to be with you under your foot. Cruising around your not even going to be trying. 460's in the 70's were in much heavier cars than a panther too. About a 1000 pounds heavier. A Mark iv was 5300 pounds!.

Horsepower wins drag races. Torque without RPM gets no work done including getting down the 1320. 400 ft lbs at low RPM will burn the tires off of the car and tow a heavy load but not win a drag race. You can make your horsepower at a low RPM with ALOT of torque or at a higher RPM with less torque. Simple math. Either way, you need horsepower to get to the traps first.

[ford man]

There were less 429s in a 71 Mustang than Boss 351s. Engine for engine, the 429SCJ will outrun a Boss 351, no contest. The only reason that the factory road tests do not reflect this is that the 429 was always tested with the close ratio toploader and the 351 got a wide ratio box. The 429 with an automatic dominated the 351.
The 351CJ was not produced the same years as the 429CJ. In 1972, the top 429 was the PI and the top 351 was the HO. The HO trumps the PI. In 1973, the 351 4V trumps any 429 or 460 available. Starting 1975, there was only a 460 4V motor available and it was pitiful.

Not sure why your telling me this. Maybe your just sharing in general. I don't think we disagree here or why it was brought up in the first place, but thats fine.


The Cobra and Explorer are fine for factory EFI intakes. An aftermarket carb intake will kill them in a drag race. Take a smog 460 and put any intake and whatever style exhaust on it you wish but make no other changes. I will beat it with an Explorer motor. There is no intake on the planet which will gain you 70HP. The timing chain change will not help you enough either.

I guess I'll take your word for a carb intake killing a explorer sefi on a explorer motor. This would also be assuming the tuning on the carb was dialed in I guess? I said intake AND straight up timing chain to get to 70 hp more. My quote was right above your post. And I thought I was being conservative on this estimate so I wouldn't get jumped on... To say a 8:1 460 can't get to 270 horsepower at least is pure lunacy. Yes intake means carb too, cause why would put the stock one back on? Any exhaust I want? I'll take some long tube headers and 2 1/2" pipe, thanks.

Horsepower wins drag races. Torque without RPM gets no work done including getting down the 1320. 400 ft lbs at low RPM will burn the tires off of the car and tow a heavy load but not win a drag race. You can make your horsepower at a low RPM with ALOT of torque or at a higher RPM with less torque. Simple math. Either way, you need horsepower to get to the traps first.

I always heard torque wins races. But maybe that's with stock converters and gears. Excuse me for saying so but a colony park station wagon is a heavy load lol. I didn't think 1984colonypark was making a 1320 machine but maybe I missed something. I assumed he was going more for a street car, driver sort of thing. We agree on 400 ft lbs burning the tires. I don't understand your 'simple math'.

[ford man]

I messed up the quotes thing. Damn.

[Mercracer]

We were discussing 70s 351 and 429 comparisons. I kind of went year by year and compared what was offered from the factory.
I wasn't being a smart ass with the simple math comment. Horsepower is a mathematical computation using torque and RPM. Torque times RPM divided by the constant (5252). The math is why the torque and RPM curves cross at 5252 RPMs.
I believe you are mixing gross and net HP ratings. A smog 460 is still making over 270 gross but it is not making 270 net even with a different intake and headers. The low compression and factory cam are not power makers.

[Mercracer]

We are wandering off topic just a little although the core information is relevant. If the motivations for putting this "free" 460 in a Panther are to have something different no matter what the cost comparisons are then there is no problem. If the goal is to decrease ET for the least amount of money then what we are discussing is very relevant. As soon as we get a post detailing the components of this 460 at the center of the thread, the matter can be better addressed.
The last post alluded to a compression increase due to aftermarket pistons being added and to the addition of an aftermarket camshaft in this engine.
On a side note, contrary to the wild accusation, the substantial amount of crack I am smoking is not effecting my mathematical computations regarding the related costs of doing a 460 swap vs simply doing an Explorer motor swap....

[packman]

If you're dropping in a smog engine, it will probably not perform that well. I don't know what's on that 460 ya got, since it seems that it's not stock. I would imagine bolt-ons (heads, cam, intake, carb, and headers) would wake up a 460, even if you get Edelbrock heads (though not what I would get). At that point it might be worth going through the trouble of installing it in a Panther. This all depends on how the wagon will be driven. Daily driver, fair weather weekend cruiser, strip car? If it's not a daily driver and you have the patience, a little money, and skill for the BBF swap, I'd say go for the 460.


Packman

[Mercracer]

I don't know what's on that 460 ya got, since it seems that it's not stock. I would imagine bolt-ons (heads, cam, intake, carb, and headers) would wake up a 460, even if you get Edelbrock heads

You simply do not need aftermarket heads to make sufficient power so long as you are starting with D3AE or better factory offerings.

[ford man]

[QUOTE=
Horsepower wins drag races. Torque without RPM gets no work done including getting down the 1320. 400 ft lbs at low RPM will burn the tires off of the car and tow a heavy load but not win a drag race. You can make your horsepower at a low RPM with ALOT of torque or at a higher RPM with less torque. Simple math. Either way, you need horsepower to get to the traps first.[/QUOTE]

What about the 260 hp impala ss getting to 60 mph 1 second faster then the 302 hp mercury marauder? 6.5 seconds vs 7.5 seconds for the marauder. The marauder has 42 more horsepower... what happened? I would contend more torque at a lower rpm got the impala moving quicker, whereas the marauder was waiting to get into its power band.

[Mercracer]

What about the 260 hp impala ss getting to 60 mph 1 second faster then the 302 hp mercury marauder? 6.5 seconds vs 7.5 seconds for the marauder. The marauder has 42 more horsepower... what happened? I would contend more torque at a lower rpm got the impala moving quicker, whereas the marauder was waiting to get into its power band.

Most tests put the Impala SS at 7.1 seconds to 60 and 15.4 seconds in the 1/4 mile and the Marauder at 7 to 7.5 seconds to 60 and 15.5 in the 1/4. The Marauder was around 4400lbs. Correct for the 200lbs and the difference in ET will closer reflect the horsepower advantage.
Ever drive a Marauder? The tune sucks. They need ALOT more gear.

[1987cp]

Wait a minute .... did I actually read the words "this is assuming the carb is dialed in I guess" ... ???? And in a PERFORMANCE TECH thread?

Please tell me my eyes are deceiving me!





Anywhoo, how much does it really cost for all the custom stuff required to get a BBF running happily somewhere it wasn't intended to fit? That'll have a big impact on any arm-waving price comparisons ... and of course, getting a Exploder engine for cheap AND having it already in good shape like this BBF seems to be is far from a sure thing, but someone of my modest experience hardly needs to point that out in the context of this discussion.