351 Cleveland swap?

[P72Ford]

I do not see many Cleveland builds at all around here; they're pretty unusual.

I am wondering why folks build 'Clevor' engines, really. Why not just build a Cleveland? Parts availability?

[1987cp]

uh? 300 hp cleveland? Back what up? Your talking about a cam and intake to get to 300 hp... How much does that cost?

Um, potentially quite a bit depending on parts used? I'm thinking $300-400 for the cam, $300-400 for linkbar lifters, $150-$300 for intake, up to several hundred for a suitable carb .... right, plus rockers, studs, and pushrods. So probably as little as $400-500 total with cheap parts up to in excess of $2500 total.


If you want to talk about a horsepower number for a certain amount of money, I thought the usual thing was to say "here's everything I spent, and here's what a dyno said I made for power and/or what number I turned in what vehicle on a dragstrip". Me, I don't talk horsepower numbers any more, because all the "data" I have are Desktop Dyno charts.


As suggested, I imagine there are lots of good Cleveland-build articles and probably even forum threads, but I've not personally seen any that I can remember, and the people I know of doing modern engine builds seem to always start with a Windsor and use, as Ed points out, aftermarket heads. Maybe one of you Cleveland experts would be so good as to refer the rest of us to some sources that reflect actual cost and results for a Cleveland build versus a comparable Windsor build?

[1987cp]

I do not see many Cleveland builds at all around here; they're pretty unusual.

I am wondering why folks build 'Clevor' engines, really. Why not just build a Cleveland? Parts availability?

My personal experience with Clevelands centered around my old boss trying to find a good block for a customer's blower build. Had to be an actual Cleveland, apparently, but kept finding blocks that weren't useful. One pre-assembled "blower" shortblock was disassembled and sonic-checked by an engine shop and determined to have inadequate wall thickness, and at least two bone-stock engines were disassembled to find huge pits in at least one cylinder wall. Those blocks both got recycled IIRC. So based on that limited info, I'd guess that block availability is a biggie.

[DuceAnAHalf]

I do not see many Cleveland builds at all around here; they're pretty unusual.

I am wondering why folks build 'Clevor' engines, really. Why not just build a Cleveland? Parts availability?

huge crank bearing diameter limits high rpm use, questionable oilling system design are two reasons i know of to not use a cleveland, however the heads flow very well and have huge valves, but modern aftermarket windsor heads flow as well or better

[ford man]

Um, potentially quite a bit depending on parts used? I'm thinking $300-400 for the cam, $300-400 for linkbar lifters, $150-$300 for intake, up to several hundred for a suitable carb .... right, plus rockers, studs, and pushrods. So probably as little as $400-500 total with cheap parts up to in excess of $2500 total.


If you want to talk about a horsepower number for a certain amount of money, I thought the usual thing was to say "here's everything I spent, and here's what a dyno said I made for power and/or what number I turned in what vehicle on a dragstrip". Me, I don't talk horsepower numbers any more, because all the "data" I have are Desktop Dyno charts.


As suggested, I imagine there are lots of good Cleveland-build articles and probably even forum threads, but I've not personally seen any that I can remember, and the people I know of doing modern engine builds seem to always start with a Windsor and use, as Ed points out, aftermarket heads. Maybe one of you Cleveland experts would be so good as to refer the rest of us to some sources that reflect actual cost and results for a Cleveland build versus a comparable Windsor build?

Ok, everything you mentioned in your potential build, would cost the same for a windsor... right? I don't know why you would need linkbar lifters at 300 hp though... nice to have a roller motor, but at 300 hp not necessary.

I don't think I was talking a horsepower number for a certain amount of money. I said a cleveland shouldn't cost more to build than a windsor at 300 hp. How much it would be to be to build a cleveland or windsor to 300 hp, I didn't say. Horsepower is a frame of reference... I don't know how you could talk about engines and not mention horsepower.

I'm not sure where your trying to go with this discussion. That I don't have a dyno sheet? That if I had a cleveland I owned that needed rebuilding, I should trade it for a windsor and buy some aftermarket heads?

I guess I thought is it was understandable that clevelands have much better heads and performance than a windsor when you do a affordable stock rebuild to either. I don't know why the cleveland would be more to rebuild than the windsor, do you?

[ford man]

huge crank bearing diameter limits high rpm use, questionable oilling system design are two reasons i know of to not use a cleveland, however the heads flow very well and have huge valves, but modern aftermarket windsor heads flow as well or better

I think you might be thinking of the 400 351m with the huge bearing diameters. From what I've read, the oiling system is questionable only after 500 hp and lots of rpm. No I don't have a link to back that up, just making a comment.

Clevelands love rpm. Proof? Nascar. They weren't windsors under the hood of ford stock cars.

[1990LTD]

351Cs must have been common locally back in the day. Whenever I talk to older car guy about Fords he asks if my car is a 351, Cleveland or Windsor, and then they'll talk about the old Cleveland they used to run and how much they wish they still had it.

[Lincolnmania]

yes they were common in 70-74 cars......the 2v engine being more common

[1987cp]

I said a cleveland shouldn't cost more to build than a windsor at 300 hp.

Sounds like you're at least trying to establish a point of comparison, though, so that's hard to follow though with unless we put down examples and ask how much they cost.

Not meaning to pick on you in particular, but lots of folks have a tendency to make wild claims of "xxx horsepower is easy and cheap if you start with yyy" without anything to back themselves up, or better yet, with no more experience than I have. On the more extreme side, the implication could be interpreted to be that if you get the motor free and throw new rings and bearings at it for $75 or $100 and stick in a $50 Summit or PAW cam you'll instantly be making a HP number people will respect. Hopefully no one actually thinks that, but it's good not to sound that way either.

And now I'll shut up and see if smarter folks than myself have edumacational factoids to share about 335-series engines.

[Mercracer]

On the more extreme side, the implication could be interpreted to be that if you get the motor free and throw new rings and bearings at it for $75 or $100 and stick in a $50 Summit or PAW cam you'll instantly be making a HP number people will respect. Hopefully no one actually thinks that, but it's good not to sound that way either.

That is exactly what can be done with a Cleveland. I will refer you once again the Boss 351 build above.
About 10 years ago I got a 351C 4V motor on trade. I honed the cylinders, put in fresh rings and bearings and ran a flat tappet Crane cam and the factory iron intake. The arrticle above mentions that it used an exact replica of the Boss 351 camshaft. This cam had only .477 lift and 290 duration. It being a solid lifter camshaft helps. My cam was a hydraulic lifter with more lift and near exact duration. (.526/.536, 288/292)
With a stock FMX tranny which slipped from 2nd to 3rd gears in a 1973 Mustang and 3.50 gears it ran low 14s. This was no light Fox bodied Mustang.

[Mercracer]

the heads flow very well and have huge valves, but modern aftermarket windsor heads flow as well or better

It takes a set of Victor Jr heads to out flow a 351C 4V head. If you look at NMRA rules, 351C heads are banned from many classes while many Windsor aftermarket aluminum heads are allowed. The average aluminum Windsor head can not hold a light to a Cleveland 4V head.

[P72Ford]

Question for you, Ed.

If I want to build a windsor stroker (408), and squeeze as much power as possible out of it, would a Clevor be a better alternative to a traditional windsor head build?

If I choose to go the Ford route for my engine build, I want to make the most of it, obviously. Originally I was thinking a traditional Windsor 408, forged rotating assembly (looked at DSS, FordStrokers, and a few others; probably have it done locally), and a set of AFR 205s/225s, or maybe a similar offering from a different brand.

Are you saying that a similar bottom end (with the necessary pistons, etc to run Cleveland heads), with the Trick Flow Cleveland heads would make more power than traditional Windsor heads of the same caliber?

Aside from a few small details, it really seems like this might be the way to go. There isn't much involved with doing a Clevor build, from what I have read.

The exhaust is a concern, but I was intending on a set of custom long tubes for any build that I do, anyway.

[Mercracer]

Maybe one of you Cleveland experts would be so good as to refer the rest of us to some sources that reflect actual cost and results for a Cleveland build versus a comparable Windsor build?

There is simply no comparable Windsor build unless you get at the minimum a set of Twisted Wedge cylinder heads for free and those will not match peak flow numbers.

[1990LTD]

Any pictures of the business end of a set of 351C heads?

[Mercracer]

Question for you, Ed.
If I want to build a windsor stroker (408), and squeeze as much power as possible out of it, would a Clevor be a better alternative to a traditional windsor head build?
If I choose to go the Ford route for my engine build, I want to make the most of it, obviously. Originally I was thinking a traditional Windsor 408, forged rotating assembly (looked at DSS, FordStrokers, and a few others; probably have it done locally), and a set of AFR 205s/225s, or maybe a similar offering from a different brand.
Are you saying that a similar bottom end (with the necessary pistons, etc to run Cleveland heads), with the Trick Flow Cleveland heads would make more power than traditional Windsor heads of the same caliber?
Aside from a few small details, it really seems like this might be the way to go. There isn't much involved with doing a Clevor build, from what I have read.
The exhaust is a concern, but I was intending on a set of custom long tubes for any build that I do, anyway.

You are talking a serious build and not just using factory parts someone has laying around. I don't have a cookie cutter answer for you on this one. I can't make a blanket statement regarding a high end build as there are many factors. I have seen stupid power made with Windsor style heads from Edelbrock and AFR. You are stepping way beyond a budget build and both routes can get you to your goals. You are at the point that a factory 351W block may not hold your parts inside for long....