Need gear info for 5spd 351 build ;)

[marquis_82_withneons]

Autos have come a long way, but if you truly want to be one with your vehicle, stick is the only way to fly.

this.... this statement should be on a plaque somewhere

[marquis_82_withneons]

Somewhat regarding the original thread topic:

A truck transmission in a car is really lame. Truck transmissions are great for creeping, towing, off-roading... truck things! They are not "sporty", and they sure as hell are not meant to be shifted quickly. Short throw shifters for pick up trucks are a moot point simply because of gear spacing. I had a Hurst short throw in my '04 Ram 1500 (NV3500), and it looked killer with the matching 4WD stick, and white knobs. I quickly learned that a shorter throw is not a quicker shift when everything else has to catch up. Kachow. That being said, I like standard transmission trucks (all I've ever had), but not for the same reasons I like standard shift cars. If I had to daily drive my '97 F-250 with the ZF5, it would take some real getting used to. Its not like the 6 spd in my TDI...

Unfortunately for the OP there is no solution that is both affordable, robust, and will be useable in a car application. Truck transmissions (some of them, not really ZFs), may be readily available and cheap, but they're going to be toilsome to drive in a car. Slow to get going, and you have to be deliberate when you shift them. Not fun or practical for daily use. The T5 will work, and is fairly affordable. If you are mindful not to get too sporty, it would probably last you fine. I find that they shift nicely, as well. TKOs are expensive, and in my opinion require internal modification to shift right. Maybe Tom can offer his feelings on that. You can get T5s that are built to "handle" your application, but at that point you are in modified TKO territory, and its kind of like "whats the point?" I have an Astro "A-5" that is rated at 585 ft*lbs for my '65 Mustang. It was expensive, but I refused to modify my cherry floor pans (or alter driveline angle) for the TKO. Also noteworthy is that my Mustang is 2500 pounds, and the engine should make in the neighborhood of 450 hp. Hardly a panther.

So your options are either: get lucky and find a suitable robust unit cheaply, bite the bullet and pay full boat, use a T5 and don't drive it like a savage, or build an AOD. I am standard shift guy through and through, but the built AOD in my '87 was cool. 3600 stall NLU, and Silverfox vb made that thing a pleasure to drive. Regarding peoples comments on using a non lock up converter: it is necessary in any AOD performance application where the input shaft is stock, and the thing is going to shift hard. Heat build up was not that noticeable in my '87; I had added a B&M stacked plate cooler, and a +3 qt deep pan, as well as temp gauge. On the highway, RPM was maybe 150-200 rpm higher than it was with lock up.

Either way, auto or standard, 3.73s are a great all around gear, whatever way you end up going.

answered my questions perfectly! thank you sir.

as for a response im going to probably say that a basic t5 is what im after then, my "fun" usually takes place with a rolling start, so im not gonna have to worry about launching the car, on top of that im not one to downshift either unless im merging or something like that.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

Knucklehead, yes traffic is one reason i strongly dislike if the vehicle I'm driving doesn't have a low-ish 1st gear - I find it that if I can creep I can usually time things so I rarely have to clutch in and come to a complete stop, but if creeping is not an option then the whole experience becomes quite annoying. That T5-equipped LSC I mentioned, prime example of annoying to drive in stop-n-go traffic.

Derek, that girl you picked up who didn't even know what a stick-shift is takes the cake in ignorance. But if she's never been exposed to one, and I can certainly see how that can be possible and even likely these days, then yeah, makes perfect sense. Your buddy with the Accord on the other hand, yeah he's got no excuse. I always find it quite funny when people don't pay attention to what their vehicle is doing - okay with an auto you typically don't have total control over it, but with a manual you can do whatever you want to, so if the engine sounds like it's struggling and giving it gas makes no difference then it's time to shift gears (pun intended). Ah well, at least you were able to get thru to him in the end.

p72, I actually think the close-ratio truck transmission are quite comfortable to drive daily, they can shift quite quick too but certainly not like a modern car tranmission. Would I put a close-ratio ZF in a Panther - absolutely, any day, behind a big block or diesel swap only tho. Would I put a wide-ratio ZF or other such truck transmission in a Panther - hell no, regardless of what engine it's got up front, and the gear spacing you mention is exactly the reason for that. Btw yes I'm well aware that a short-throw shifter does nothing for speeding up the actual shift, but it does make for less area having to be allocated to the shifter to do its thing. Is it needed - actually probably not, once the shifter is cut down its swing naturally decreases, and I personally like when I have to move the shifter a bit wider (fuck the 4-5 upshift on 6-speed car transmissions), so I guess it's one of those try it and see how it feels first things.

Good to know that a non-lokup AOD still performs quite decent. And yes, your trans fluid temperatures look exactly like what they should look like. As for auto vs. manual, yes racing a stick certainly does call for more skills, so if a challenge is what one's after then go stick for sure.

[knucklehead0202]

So much good here. Great info on the lock-up vs. non-lock-up from P72, although I do have a hazy spot. My understanding with AOD's is that if you run non-lock-up you can use a 1-piece input shaft, thus eliminating the largest weak spot, the shaft-in-a-shaft. Admittedly i'm still green with AOD stuff so i'd love more info. Usually whenever I try reading through this stuff it's late and i'm tired, so my cache tends to dump some details.

Marquis, T5's are a totally mixed bag so you might be able to get away with one for a while. Back in my mustang days, I knew a bunch of guys that blew them to smithereens without much effort, and others, myself included, that beat the holy piss out of them and never had trouble. An aftermarket shifter with stops is an absolute must as mentioned, but only an idiot would go to the trouble of swapping this in and using a friggin' stock shifter. Adjusting said shifter is also tantamount to proper function of the stops as a disaster preventative, or delay I suppose. Having driven cars with the early Tremec 3550, it was not a very smooth transmission compared to the T5, but did handle power better. Can't weigh in on the newer TKO series but i'm sure they've improved, although price is higher. The built T5's are bloody expensive, but for my money I love the t5 so i'd try to find one used for cheap.

Ghosty, yeah manuals are a whore in traffic unless it's something really smooth. A small-block with a cam is going to be a twitchy little bitch trying to idle along in 1st, even with gears, been there. I really want another stick car but it would have to be a fair-weather friend and I just don't have the room or the money for it. Seeing the way things are now I wonder how I made it so long driving stick cars. Part of it is that the last one I had was over 10 years ago and there were a lot less people here then. Get out on the road though and it really is more fun in my opinion. One of these days....

[His Royal Ghostliness]

So much good here. Great info on the lock-up vs. non-lock-up from P72, although I do have a hazy spot. My understanding with AOD's is that if you run non-lock-up you can use a 1-piece input shaft, thus eliminating the largest weak spot, the shaft-in-a-shaft.

Non-lockup converter probably drives both shafts off the turbine, because the small shaft is not coupled directly to the engine the converter does its fluid damper action in 3rd and 4th too so quick and firm shifts aren't shock-loading the shaft nearly as bad. And yeah you can certainly get the 1-piece shaft for high power-applications, tho given the tail end of it still has to spline into factory-sized hub I'm not sure how the shaft becomes a major strength upgrade if its minor diameter doesn't really change.

[Grand Marquis GT]

Unfortunately for the OP there is no solution that is both affordable, robust, and will be useable in a car application. Truck transmissions (some of them, not really ZFs), may be readily available and cheap, but they're going to be toilsome to drive in a car. Slow to get going, and you have to be deliberate when you shift them. Not fun or practical for daily use. The T5 will work, and is fairly affordable. If you are mindful not to get too sporty, it would probably last you fine. I find that they shift nicely, as well. TKOs are expensive, and in my opinion require internal modification to shift right. Maybe Tom can offer his feelings on that. You can get T5s that are built to "handle" your application, but at that point you are in modified TKO territory, and its kind of like "whats the point?" I have an Astro "A-5" that is rated at 585 ft*lbs for my '65 Mustang. It was expensive, but I refused to modify my cherry floor pans (or alter driveline angle) for the TKO. Also noteworthy is that my Mustang is 2500 pounds, and the engine should make in the neighborhood of 450 hp. Hardly a panther.

So your options are either: get lucky and find a suitable robust unit cheaply, bite the bullet and pay full boat, use a T5 and don't drive it like a savage, or build an AOD. I am standard shift guy through and through, but the built AOD in my '87 was cool. 3600 stall NLU, and Silverfox vb made that thing a pleasure to drive. Regarding peoples comments on using a non lock up converter: it is necessary in any AOD performance application where the input shaft is stock, and the thing is going to shift hard. Heat build up was not that noticeable in my '87; I had added a B&M stacked plate cooler, and a +3 qt deep pan, as well as temp gauge. On the highway, RPM was maybe 150-200 rpm higher than it was with lock up.

Either way, auto or standard, 3.73s are a great all around gear, whatever way you end up going.

The TKO in my car shifts pretty good, but it's not butter like a T5 either. It doesn't shift nearly as bad as everyone makes it out, and it's highly doubtful you'll be making power like the guys who get them pro-shifted, faceplated, etc.

Food for thought: T-5s are easily rebuildable thanks to the power of youtube. There is a slew of aftermarket parts that will make them a lot more reliable in stock form. One of the big things I have found TKO vs. T-5 is the tolerances. TKOs have much, much tighter tolerances so that is going to make shifting more notchy to begin with. For example, when doing an install you MUST check the runout on the bellhousing on a TKO to ensure that the end of the input shaft does not move out of round in the pilot bearing/crank. T-5s, not so much.

So, A T-5 should work for your application and budget. You are already familiar with the downsides. For what it's worth, I absolutely, 150% love the TKO in my Merk. That car should not be as fun to drive as it is, with the super weak CFI 302 and 3.08 peg leg. But man, it is almost as much fun as you can have with your pants on!

[gadget73]

Non-lockup converter probably drives both shafts off the turbine, because the small shaft is not coupled directly to the engine the converter does its fluid damper action in 3rd and 4th too so quick and firm shifts aren't shock-loading the shaft nearly as bad. And yeah you can certainly get the 1-piece shaft for high power-applications, tho given the tail end of it still has to spline into factory-sized hub I'm not sure how the shaft becomes a major strength upgrade if its minor diameter doesn't really change.

As far as I know, this is accurate. Instead of a hollow outer shaft and a small inner shaft, its one shaft with the OD of the larger one, necked down to the smaller end at the back end of the trans. The smaller bit there at the back is still however strong it is, but most of the one piece input shafts are made of a more skookum material than whatever the stock one is so it ends up somewhat stronger.

Honestly I'm not sure that the big problem is the shaft snapping as it is the way it fastens to the converter shell that is the weak point. The aftermarket converters all do away with that part, I assume for a reason.

[DerekTheGreat]

...Derek, that girl you picked up who didn't even know what a stick-shift is takes the cake in ignorance. But if she's never been exposed to one, and I can certainly see how that can be possible and even likely these days, then yeah, makes perfect sense. Your buddy with the Accord on the other hand, yeah he's got no excuse. I always find it quite funny when people don't pay attention to what their vehicle is doing - okay with an auto you typically don't have total control over it, but with a manual you can do whatever you want to, so if the engine sounds like it's struggling and giving it gas makes no difference then it's time to shift gears (pun intended). Ah well, at least you were able to get thru to him in the end...

She certainly surprised me, I couldn't stop laughing but then was saddened by said ignorance. The whole car would shake at times when he was driving, that's how bad it was haha. Talked to him today, he's still struggling with it...