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Thread: Frame Lenghts?

  1. #1
    I post a lot... pantera77's Avatar
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    Default Frame Lenghts?

    I have read conflicting info on wagon frame lengths so I did some measuring. The frame on my 87 Colony Park is about 4 inches longer then my 89 CV and 91 CV wagon. Both vic's come in at roughly 16ft, but the CP is about 4 inches longer.

    Now, on a STAP tour a few years ago, I was chatting with an employe with a CV wagon who had worked there for many many years (he's actually a member here too IIRC), and he mentioned to me how sometimes a CV wagon or Country Squire would end up on a GM wagon or Colony park frame, or vice versa. This would lead to the header panels not fitting right because the CP/GM wagon frame is ~4" longer in the front. Now I always thought that made no sense, but sure enough, I just measured it, and from the front most steering gear box bolt to the front of the frame is ~21" on the CP, and ~18" on the vic's. I'd have to assume this only effects 79-87 GM's, but wouldn't that mean the sedans/tudors are longer too? I'm 99% sure they are not, so why is the wagon frame longer in the front? As far as I can tell both of my Vic's frame, wagon and sedan are the same length, the wagon just has more overhang out back.

  2. #2
    Hobbit
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    Which part is longer? Are the front rad support mounts 2 inches forward?

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    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Isn't the wheelbase different too ? I could have sworn the wagon frames were 3" longer wheelbase, just like the Towncar is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bean View Post
    Which part is longer? Are the front rad support mounts 2 inches forward?
    I wouldn't think the rad support is different. Aren't GM and CV fenders the same? The rad support has to be the same between them. From the very tip of the frame (where the bumper shocks mount) to the first bolt on the gearbox is definitely longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    Isn't the wheelbase different too ? I could have sworn the wagon frames were 3" longer wheelbase, just like the Towncar is.
    I'll have to do some more measuring tomorrow. I've never paid attention to frame length's before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pantera77 View Post
    I wouldn't think the rad support is different. Aren't GM and CV fenders the same? The rad support has to be the same between them. From the very tip of the frame (where the bumper shocks mount) to the first bolt on the gearbox is definitely longer.
    How can that be though? If fenders are the same then that section also has to be the same, no?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bean View Post
    How can that be though? If fenders are the same then that section also has to be the same, no?
    I know, that's why I'm confused. I think must be because the header panel is longer.

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    GMN = life johnunit's Avatar
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    If the header panel is longer, and we know the bumper doesn't protrude a noticeably different amount, there'd have to be a frame difference, no? What have people done or had issues with when swapping from GM to CV header panels?

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    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    The front doors forward are the same on wagons as sedans. The only different metal between a GM and a 79-87 Vic is the hood. The GM and 88-91 Vic used the same hood, the early Vic has it's own hood. I'm reasonably sure the rear doors on wagons are not the same as a sedan though, which is why I was thinking they had a longer wheelbase.

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    Domestic Tourist Lincolnmania's Avatar
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    this makes sense sorta, the shooting brake supposedly has a town car hearse frame under it.

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    I post a lot... pantera77's Avatar
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    Ok, finally measured and took some pics.

    Wagon frames are longer than Sedan frames by ~2" out back.

    79-87 GM frames are ~4" longer in the front. I'm assuming 88-91 GM frames are the same as 88-91 CV frames.

    Sedan and Tudor frames are the same.

    Aero and box frames are the same.




    Here's what the front end of the frame looks like on a 85 CV tudor, 89 CV sedan, 91 CV wagon, 92 CV and an 04 CV in that order. Note the body mount is pretty much at the end of the frame.











    Now, compare this to an 87 CP. I can only assume all 79-87 GM/CP's have this setup. The body mount is in the same place, but the end of the frame is ~4" longer to where the bumper mounts.





    Now, the back of the frame. 85 CV tudor, 89 CV sedan, 92 CV, 04 CV. Note it's about 27.5" from the rear of the frame to the rear most body mount.







    Now a 91 CV wagon. About 30" from the end of the frame to the body mount. The 87 CP was the same, forgot to take a pic though.







    Also, wagon rear doors are they same as sedans, but the window frames are shorter on a wagon.

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    Hobbit
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    Interesting. I just compared your pic of 87' CP to my 85' tudor frame and it is also longer in the front. I wonder if all pre 87' GMQs had the 4" extension in the front.


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bean View Post
    Interesting. I just compared your pic of 87' CP to my 85' tudor frame and it is also longer in the front. I wonder if all pre 87' GMQs had the 4" extension in the front.
    I can only assume so. I find it weird Ford went through the trouble to give early Grand Marq's an entirely different frame.

    Can anyone with a 88-91 GM or CP check the front of their frame?

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    How did guys install 88-91 front ends on 79-97 Merks? If the frames are longer, how did the bumpers line up?

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    I can't find a pic, but I'm certain my '89 mgm has the extended front frame. I'll try to remember to take a pic tommorow in day light.

    Alex.

  15. #15
    I post a lot... pantera77's Avatar
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    You guys are right, in this pic of my 91 GM you can see it has the extended front. So Grand Marq's had their own separate frames all the way till 92'. Interesting.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pantera77 View Post
    ...So Grand Marq's had their own separate frames all the way till 92'. Interesting.
    Looked at some side shots on the '88-'91 MGMs and LTDCVs, the header panel was still longer on Grand Marquis than LTD Crown Victoria. Because of that, the bumper is also still out ever so further.

    Sure is an interesting find; nice work Pantera.

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  17. #17
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pantera77 View Post


    Also, wagon rear doors are they same as sedans, but the window frames are shorter on a wagon.
    so they are different, but not how I thought they were. I knew there was something different there.

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  18. #18
    I post a lot... pantera77's Avatar
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    I wonder how many different frames total there were for boxes.

    79-91 GM Sedan + Tudor
    79-91 GM/CP wagon
    79-91 CV Sedan + Tudor
    79-91 CV/CS wagon
    79-91 CVPI

    And that makes me wonder, since there was a police option GM, if it got it's own PI spec frame like CV's did.

    And then there's the Lincoln's, but I have no clue on those.
    Last edited by pantera77; 12-10-2014 at 06:52 PM.

  19. #19
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    I've heard it claimed that tow package cars got special thicker frames too. No clue if this is true or not. I've never had a sample size or the inclination to take micrometer readings on the frame in various places to see if anything checked out. I have a tow package car and can take measurements if anyone wants them.

    Lincolns should have 2 frames, the Mark VI coupe and the 4 doors. I don't rightly know what the 2 door Continental or Town Coupe had. It was the longer wheelbase of the 4 door model, but its possible something was different in the middle of the door area with regards to body mounts. I've only ever seen one, and have never been under it. They were only made for 2 years and in small number. It is possible there are minor variations when the bumpers changed in '85 but that shouldn't be anything major.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
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    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  20. #20
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    Comparing the 2 Mark VI images the wheels bases for 2 doors and 4 doors look the same.

    Last edited by Mr Bean; 12-11-2014 at 12:19 AM.

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