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Thread: Happy to join this community! Mostly looking for help though...

  1. #101
    Wagon Addicted Tiggie's Avatar
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    It sounds like the mechanic is throwing parts at it, which is a good diet plan for your wallet as you have discovered.

    There are three threads in the Box Tech/Electrical forum with CFI to SEFI conversion posts. From what I gather, on the 84/85 it’s not that bad but you do need a donor. Donor cars here are getting hard to find, so I bet there it’s near impossible up there. You would probably need someone in the US to put together a conversion package for you and send it up your way.

    If the car is a daily driver, I would strongly consider the SEFI if we can figure out a way to get parts to you. I have been driving my 88 SEFI daily for 12 years and it has never failed to start, run nicely, and take me where I need to go.

    If the car is an occasional driver and you prefer the carb, run it.
    1988 Crown Vic Wagon - daily
    1990 Country Squire - weekend cruiser, former lawn ornament
    Other: 95 Ranger, 74 F250, 68 Mustang, 94 Mustang
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  2. #102
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    As is, the car seems to have two issues; breaking up / misfiring at idle and low throttle and the very rich fuel mixture.

    From the ignition side, plugs, plug wires, coil has been checked good, TFI module and distributor (all parts) changed, and the wiring has been gone through. Base timing adjusted to correct 10BTDC, should check timing chain for looseness. ECM left.
    Fuel: New injectors, pressure regulator, fuel pressure is good, new oxygen sensor, new ect sensor, act sensor checked good, thermactor system supposedly works good, egr probably too. (@kishy would you kindly?)

    Car was supposed to be a daily driver, I certainly wouldn't mind the new car -esque starting and throttle response, I'm guessing the EFI (mass-air?) ECM is programmable and won't go batshit crazy about a thermactor delete or such. The big plus for the carb is that it's simple, easily attainable and I somewhat know how to work on one. Then there's the cold starting, driveability, and (lack of) fuel economy... Not a fan of the EFI massive upper intake, but that's the least of my problems.
    I'm getting a ~500€ winter beater soon, since the MGM needs rustproofing and studded tires, which would cost at least as much

  3. #103
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    A well tuned carb would probably work fine as a daily, even on colder days with a 10-15 minute warm up time. The only thing you would need to know is how much to adjust it for large changes in altitude. Wide band oxygen sensor would help loads with tuning... though a voltmeter on the stock sensor and a carb with the ability to adjust mixtures while running would also work well.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  4. #104
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    What kind of symptoms does a loose timing chain emit in these cars? Or just same shit as with everything else?

    I've been discussing with the mechanic, he's been opening up the wire looming to check for faulty wiring, but nothing yet, there doesn't seem to be many possible culprits left, other than the wiring which so far seems "fine". A faulty ECM? That could fix both of the issues, if that's it. I'll also be discussing about all the parts he's gone through, since it's kinda absurd to charge me alot for things that didn't fix shit.

    I've been browsing local forums and marketplaces, I'm sure I could source an EFI intake manifold somewhat cheap, other things to find locally would probably be the headers and the throttle body, since they weight alot and private freight is expensive, unless it comes by ship, but that takes for bloody ever. Wiring, sensors and linkages would probably be easier and cheaper to get from the States.

    Quote Originally Posted by sly View Post
    A well tuned carb would probably work fine as a daily, even on colder days with a 10-15 minute warm up time.
    What does "colder days" mean when said by a texan? Where I live in Finland, mean temperature is below freezing for 3-4 months a year, the colder days last winter were around -20C/-4F, peaking at -30C/-22F. Not exactly the most carb-friendly climate eh? Considering my commute is about 20 minutes, 10-15 min warm up is a bit steep. I intended to winter drive it, but probably not if I go carb. I'm getting a winter beater for this winter, next summer I'll get the GMQ properly rust-proofed and get some winter tires (and a block heater probably too) for it.

    Altitude changes are a definite non-issue in Finland:
    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #105
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    Down to -40C with a block heater on it. I'd say down to at least -20C without a block heater as I've seen -4F here in Texas (yeah, sometimes it does actually get COLD here) when I had an 1985 Pontiac Parisienne (Chevy Caprice) with a 305 and quadrajet carb. Cranked right up, but didn't run well until the engine got above freezing. Stayed in high idle almost all the way to work. I did have to give it 10-15 minutes to warm up before it would not die going into gear though. That was about it.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  6. #106
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Oh boy, new ECM in and the misfire is still there, apparently the fuel mixture isn't as rich anymore, but still way too rich.
    For whatever reason, they still haven't checked the timing chain, but it'll be checked tomorrow.
    He also mentioned that there's a little bit of valve train noise when the oil is properly warmed up. Maybe a rocker adjustment is loosening up after 100k miles, I don't know and I just want my car back at this point. These things do have hydraulic lifters yes?

    All wiring has been thoroughly gone through and pretty much every ignition-related part has been changed or checked good...
    If it's the damn timing chain that's causing all this, I'll be demanding some sort of discount for all this damn time and parts thrown at the car, as it was one of the things on my to-check list when I originally dropped off the car.

  7. #107
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    Hydraulic roller as of 86. Flat tappet up to 85. Some 85 blocks are roller capable though and can be converted, but should be flat tappet stock.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  8. #108
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Nothing in the valvetrain is adjustable. It bolts down and thats it.

    I prefer fuel injection for it's cold start abilities, but we're talking about parts that are 30 odd years old now. The supply isn't amazing in the US, and in Finland it will be basically non-existant. For you, much as it pains me to admit it, a carb makes more sense if you can't get the CFI to go.

    That said, there isnt' any reason the CFI can't be made to work. It worked once. You might want to ping kishy and see if he has any specific advice. He's spent more time chasing out CFI running problems than anyone else I know.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

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  9. #109
    I post a lot... knucklehead0202's Avatar
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    If you don't have to do emissions bullshit, put a 4-barrel manifold on and one of the newer EFI systems. Some are very inexpensive and pretty much auto-tune as well. Easier and more power potential than shitty stock Ford CFI. Just throwing that out there...

  10. #110
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knucklehead0202 View Post
    If you don't have to do emissions bullshit, put a 4-barrel manifold on and one of the newer EFI systems. Some are very inexpensive and pretty much auto-tune as well. Easier and more power potential than shitty stock Ford CFI. Just throwing that out there...
    Of course there's the aftermarket option, modern TBI is well hyped and is a very straightforward way to improve useability, I do have a few friends that run them. Even better would be multi-port EFI, wouldn't be that much more expensive with a SEFI/HO intake and an aftermarket computer.

    For me to change to anything but CFI, I need an intake, EFI unit / mpfi rails, injectors, computer etc and a distributor + coil. Even the SEFI conversion needs a different distributor but the coil can be reused IIRC.

    Distributor - HEI is around 200€
    At least 200€ for a basic dual plane intake manifold (a bit cheaper if I find something used)
    FiTech Go Street EFI base level TBI system - 1000€
    Then there's the fuel delivery, gaskets, throttle and TV linkages - a couple hundred or so (dunno how the CFI in-tank pump would do)

    A carb setup needs the same stuff but instead of the TBI stuff I could get a reman 650/750CFM 4bbl e-choke for around 400€
    Since I would have to change all the same stuff both ways, the 500-600€ difference isn't that big when on the other end of the scale is everything a modern TBI system offers. Even the base level Go Street EFI goes up to 400hp, which definitely fine, for any future desires.

    Currently I am mostly interested in all the money and stuff you need for an SEFI swap, and what tuneability and programming features does the stock Ferd computer offer. The main point in a sefi swap (for me) would be the low(er) cost and increase in driveability. Though I really like the big-round-air cleaner-on-top-style of engine bay, since the car looks so old for '85. Which the TBI would certainly support

    I've dumped so much money to this CFI turd, I'd like to see it work properly first. I mean I haven't seen the bill yet but it's there somewhere and it's sturdy.
    Last edited by Arquemann; 09-20-2019 at 05:46 AM.

  11. #111
    The Brown Blob 87gtVIC's Avatar
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    The stock lopo sefi computer offers you nothing in the tuning and programming front.
    ~David~

    My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
    My 2004 Mercedes Benz E320:The Benz

    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

  12. #112
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 87gtVIC View Post
    The stock lopo sefi computer offers you nothing in the tuning and programming front.
    Oh.

    So doing an SEFI swap with the stock ECM is worthwhile only if keep my engine stock? How about EGR and mostly the smog pump system? I've read about some GMN'rs running without the pump stuff, and more about the EGR deleting from mustang forums and such. Having and egr is fine by me, it's the air pump system that seems like extra weight and complexity in the engine bay that I wouldn't mind removing. How does an SEFI (or CFI) ECM react to doing that? I'm pretty sure the legalities here would be fine, although I will verify all before acting.

  13. #113
    Beater gonna beat sly's Avatar
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    stock computer won't gripe about removing smog and EGR stuff unless you look for codes. In those cases, if it's been removed, you just ignore the codes. It won't affect usability.

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
    rides: 88 MGM (SOLD), 93 Vic, 2000 Crown Vic, 2003 Expedition
    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73
    ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmccaig
    Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

  14. #114
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Cool, the timing chain was loose.
    Around 10 at the crank, almost 20 at the cam.

    So that's getting changed on monday.

    Thanks to whoever said that first and a slap to the face for me for not checking it myself before taking the car to the shop.

    Hopefully it'll fix the rich running too...

  15. #115
    I post a lot... knucklehead0202's Avatar
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    Nice! Hope that's the end of the woes.

  16. #116
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    I might get my car back tomorrow*

    That would be amazing since I'm totally sick of the Mercedes I've been driving; the roof leaks in the rain when going over 60km/h, rear defroster is so slow it might aswell not work at all, heater blows warm only after 10-15 min of reaching operating temp, ac not working is not an issue anymore (mornings are barely above freezing), though it only blows warm through the dash vents and the defroster, not to my feet, and the retrofitted keyless entry stopped working. All of this is making my "mint" "turd" feel like the perfect car, which makes me want it back even more!

    We shall see what the bill will look like, I will most likely negotiate a bit on it, as it might come around to half the price of the car itself.

    (*on the notion the new timing set should fix my issues)

  17. #117
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Fixing the timing chain is definitely not going to hurt it. The EFI triggers everything off the engine speed and if it doesn't have good input, you get all sorts of bad output.


    ultimately even if you do end up with a carb on it, those don't run well with a sloppy timing chain either.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  18. #118
    Member Arquemann's Avatar
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    Whoopdedoo, new timing set in and its said to be a whole lot better. Not exactly 100%, a little jerky still but said to be very minor, maybe just the deposits from running so rich. Or just 30yo CFI -things...
    They haven't checked the emissions values yet, they'll check those tomorrow, with the old and new ECMs.

    Anyhow, I'm picking up the car tomorrow. I'll drive it as is for now, I have to get a winter beater quite soon anyways, nights are dipping below zero and I don't trust the all-seasons on the MGM.
    We shall see what spring brings, possibly a modern TBI setup. The annual inspection is in May, which it won't pass if the thing still runs even nearly as rich.

  19. #119
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    Well...

    What the mechanic said about it being better was horseshit.
    I picked up the car today and paid the bill, it was reasonable for the amount of work and parts spent. I just wonder what did I spend over 1700 on. There's seriously no difference, it might even be worse for all I know.

    New plugs, plug wires, distributor, TFI module, TFI connector, coil and ECM. All wires, connectors and grounds checked. CFI unit rebuilt, new injectors, fuel pressure regulator, EGR position sensor, TPS, oxygen sensor, intake air temp sensor and
    PCV valve. New double roller timing set installed and cam timing set to 4 degrees something (IDK, I'm not that good). Oil & filter changed, 20W50 mineral oil. Supposedly no more vacuum leaks anywhere anymore.

    Main problem (still): very jerky and "stumbles" sharply at low throttle and when trying to maintain speeds under 50MPH. Feels like a misfire. Idle misfires (or whatever it does) like 70% of the time, it's intermittent and uneven. It feels like an obvious shove, sometimes one, sometimes 5 in a row, sometimes it idles buttery smooth and starts bucking again at the next stoplight. Fast idle when cold is fine.

    According to the mechanic: It runs rich on idle, only on idle, even when the AC compressor kicks on and the idle rises a bit, the o2 readings turn normal. "Turn up the idle" -mechanic.

    I think I'll do that and a compression test when weekend comes by.






    Somebody please help me...

  20. #120
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    unhook the vac line to the egr valve and see if it acts different. I had that sort of troubles with mine when the egr was opening at the wrong time.

    Ever check it for codes? If its got a bad throttle position sensor it'll do this too.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

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