long or short headers? mustang exhaust compatibility on panther?

[BerniniCaCO3]

Hi!

I picked up an engine to rebuild yesterday; I have everything but, oddly, the headers.
Now my stock headers are awfully rusty, and there won't be a better time to swap out.
I'm happy to report the cylinders are very much with in spec, so I think I can get away without any reboring!

I've found both "shorties" and for $50 more, long mustang headers/ exhaust manifolds.
I know that they have to bolt onto the heads just fine, the engines are the same. But do they line up just fine on the other end, meeting the exhaust?

Second question.
I've still got the small opening y-pipe. I'd like to upgrade to dual. Both X-pipes and H-pipes are available, I don't know the practical difference between them (alright, one's an H, one's an X-- what I don't know what that entails for airflow and which is preferable).
Would either an X or an H pipe off a mustang fit my panther body?

I can't remember the thread, but last week someone told me that I do need the mufflers/ tailpipe tips off of a caprice, that mustang mufflers would not fit easily?


Anyway, if someone could clarify whether I can fit the long pipe headers, fit the H or X pipes from a mustang, and then exactly what I need off of a caprice, I think it was?

I'll find out soon enough, but how are exhaust elements joined? If I find what I need at crazy rays, the local upick upull, just use that chain link pipe cutter and slice it off? Or must I be a bit more elegant, and disassemble it at the original joints?

[87gtVIC]

Mustang shorties will not bolt up to your exhaust. Best to purchase a mustang h pipe and redo everything back. Just stick with mustang shorties, and stay away from long tubes (if that was what you were asking) because they do not work.

for over axles you will want WLK-54017 and WLK-54016 as well as some pipe to get the exhaust to the rear bumper.

after the h pipe you can use s-10 intermediate pipes to bring you up to the mufflers...below is my set up:

Exhaust:

1. Dual Exhaust
2. New Bosch Premium Oxygen Sensors (13593)
3. 1987 Ford Mustang Headers
4. Grade 8 Hardware Securing Mustang Headers
5. NOS Ford Mustang Air injection Pipe
6. NOS Ford Mustang H-Pipe
7. Grade 8 Hardware Securing H-Pipe to Headers
8. Two Walker 2 1/4” Intermediate Pipes ( 43281)
9. Grade 8 Hardware Securing Intermediate Pipes to H-Pipe
10. Two Walker 2-1/4” ID to 2-1/2” OD Exhaust Adapters (41963)
11. Two Polished Stainless Steel MAGNAFLOW Performance Flow Through 2.5” In/Out Offset/Offset Mufflers (11236)
12. Custom 2-1/2” Exhaust Turn Downs Dumped Before Rear Axle


Nothing was easy and everything required modification especially the mufflers that were originally on an 86 mustang. I may in the future go with the impy tailpipes...but above is what I have and with the work my father put into the pieces everything fit great. BUT IT DOES NOT JUST BOLT UP. Much cutting, and welding was required.

Sound clip...click picture..

[1987cp]

Conventional wisdom seems to be that off-the-shelf longtube headers don't fit a Panther and you must go with Mustang tubular manifolds and matching crossover pipe (or custom-built equivalent). BUT, I'm *told* (by user jayh, though he's not been around this site in a while) that the cheap Summit Racing 1-5/8" Mustang headers have a slip fit by the collectors that allows you to actually remove a tube or two once you slit the header flange. Supposedly this is sufficient to get the p/s header tucked in between the starter and the framerail, so only the d/s header needs modification. I didn't know this when I tried to fit a set of those, and gave up on the passenger side without ever trying the driver's side. So, that part would appear to be an option so long as you have a 8.2-deck engine that doesn't need 1-3/4" primaries.

Of course, I've occasionally wondered how cheaply one could obtain a set of custom-built headers and/or how hard it would be to build them yourself. Probably not within the scope of most GMNers' projects, but it's something I like to consider maybe doing someday.

[87gtVIC]

Of course, I've occasionally wondered how cheaply one could obtain a set of custom-built headers and/or how hard it would be to build them yourself. Probably not within the scope of most GMNers' projects, but it's something I like to consider maybe doing someday.

I remember when I watched Monster Garage Jesse James more often than not made custom headers for whatever crazy creation they were doing. He always made it look so simple....

[P72Ford]

Without a mandrel bender, or a box of mandrel bends to work from, you'd be wasting your time. Constant diameter bends are needed.

Very few places have mandrel benders, as they are very expensive.

If you had a box of bends to work from, then you'd need a tig welder for best results. Trying to mig a set together would be pretty absurd, and I'm not sure the welds would hold up to vibration, as mig welds are harder.

I have a set of headers for a small block Ford (289-302) that I think would fit on a box panther without modification. I have done much looking, but not mock up yet. Maybe sometime in the future. And no, I'm not saying what they fit, because I don't want folks running out and buying them, thinking they will, just because I mentioned it.

I was given a quote of 1000-1200 for a set for my car. That is plain stainless (409, I believe). Not too bad, in my opinion. Depending on what engine build I opt for, I will more than likely go for it. Definitely will if I opt for a Clevor or big block build, as shorty applications are...?

There are folks online that do custom long tubes by mail order, believe it or not. They mail you a set of adjustable elbows/ flanges, and you fit them with lengths of PVC conduit it, lock them in place, and mail them back. You get headers sometimes thereafter. It looks expensive, and I'm sure the deposit on the adjustable elbows is STEEP. But they look really nice. I'm just thinking the risk of overlooking something is pretty high, and getting a spendy set of headers that still don't fit, when its no one's fault but your own, doesn't seem appealing.

I am fairly certain that I could make/ have my own made with a lot of time, money, and effort. I have the software to easily model mechanical routing (hard tube). Developing the model would be difficult, although not impossible, especially with the help of a friend of mine that works with complex tube routing all day. He has a tool that I won't go into detail about, that would be invaluable for modeling. It basically makes a 3D model via scanning.

I could run CFD on the headers and everything, once modeled. Again, more time.

But, for manufacture... I have the hook up. The aforementioned friend works in an aerospace tubing shop; but thats not how I know him (being that alot of my designs and manufactured there). Anyway, he can mandrel bend up to 7" diameter duct. He makes titanium pipes for motorcycles all the time, and has even done a few Corvette exhaust systems, out of titanium (they can also do stainless, etc). He's a gearhead, and would probably love this project.

I could do it, but the effort, time, and money are not worth it, when there are folks that do this kind of thing for what I consider affordable prices. Yeah, they would be 'aerospace' quality, but I'd invest at least what it would cost at least what I was quoted above, and take weeks of my time and effort.

[rellik god]

7. Grade 8 Hardware Securing H-Pipe to Headers


how long were the Hardware Securing H-Pipe to Headers

[87gtVIC]

I honestly do not remember. I can say for sure that it was least the same length as the only remaining non rusty stock bolt that was left in the header.

[1987cp]

Nathan? I'd be shocked if anyone actually intended to build headers out of non-mandrel-bent tubing ....

I was thinking of starting from one of those kits sold by Hedman and similar companies. Granted, many are more for through-the-fender streetrod headers, and a Panther header build may be reduced to buying SBF flanges and then purchasing the individual mandrel bends you need. But still, I don't imagine it would be rocket science to whittle up a set, given access to some reasonable way of welding them up.

[1987cp]

7. Grade 8 Hardware Securing H-Pipe to Headers


how long were the Hardware Securing H-Pipe to Headers

Or Class 9.8 if you're using BBK shorties.

[P72Ford]

Nathan? I'd be shocked if anyone actually intended to build headers out of non-mandrel-bent tubing ....

Yeah, well I've seen it, at a a car show this past summer.

[BerniniCaCO3]

HAH-- I think custom headers are beyond me. I'm rebuilding the engine on a budget of $500 for goodness sakes!

Alright, so stock shorty headers, stock H pipe. I'm seeing a few craigslist opportunities that include mufflers as well.
I'll need to insert extra lengths to push the mufflers back? Or get extra long exhaust tips?

I remember seeing something about equal versus unequal length headers. Some of the h-pipes, when the seller includes a photo, definitely have one side several inches longer than the other.
A problem if purchased and tried to fit into our panther bodies?

There also seem to be two styles of shorties: one that's pretty direct, where the four exhaust pipes fuse into one fairly immediately, and another style where the tubes twist around each other like a squid before rejoining. The latter kind seems of better performance: the more surface area to cool down and condense before 4 pipes converge into 1, the less resistance: do you know if it'll fit? Hate to drive an hour round trip and hand over $50 and then not have it fit

[BerniniCaCO3]

I also came across one seller who did specify that his h pipe was "made for long headers." There's a difference then that I need to be careful of?

[1987cp]

Uh, yeah. Check Summitracing.com for comparisons.

Pretty sure most people say equal-length shorties aren't worth the trouble.

[johnunit]

yep, long-tube headers mean they extend farther down and back towards the rear of the car, and that extra length is taken out of the H-pipe. Long-tube specific h-pipes will not fit shorty headers or stock manifolds of any type.

[1987cp]

Also, aren't "longtube specific" bolt-on H pipes usually intended for those odd longtubes with small-diameter ball flange collectors? I'd highly doubt they'd be remotely worth the trouble on a Panther application.