KW's 1979 Ford LTD Landau

[gadget73]

I really find it funny that we're now in this fuzzy realm of inability to make things work with our cars because they are now too old, but also too new. "back in the day" people complained that EFI was too complex, and carbs were the only way to go. Now nobody knows how to work on old EFI and carbs are pure voodoo, especially anything with more than 2 vacuum lines in the entire engine bay.

[DerekTheGreat]

Yeah, that and the parts are becoming obscure and too expensive. I might end up having to convert to some aftermarket EFI system should ours shit the bed. Shouldn't have any issue getting parts for our LS equipped stuff, but the Ford SEFI and GM TBI stuff we've got rolling around has me thinking...

Also depends where you read. Over on that GMT400 forum, tons of good ole boys slappin' carbs down.

[Kodachrome Wolf]

I really find it funny that we're now in this fuzzy realm of inability to make things work with our cars because they are now too old, but also too new. "back in the day" people complained that EFI was too complex, and carbs were the only way to go. Now nobody knows how to work on old EFI and carbs are pure voodoo, especially anything with more than 2 vacuum lines in the entire engine bay.

I won't claim to be a carb wizard, and most of my knowledge is limited and rudimentary at best. Spent a fair time with a standalone tachometer and vacuum gauge to get the idle speed and idle circuits adjusted appropriately.

Personally I find the '87 pretty easy to work on. EEC-IV spits out trouble codes, and with a little FSM guidance, troubleshoot and diagnose the matter. DVOM usage might be required for certain things, but really the "old" EFI ain't that bad to get sorted out. Probably the only real trouble I've seen in specific instances was capacitor failure on the ECU and a recap job wouldn't bring it back around. Of the two cars I found that actually needed ECUs, neither would produce trouble codes and the test light just burned steady with the key on while probing the output pin and the diagnostic pins jumped. Both of those cars also ran really stupid with capacitor failure. I do specifically remember that '89 Mustang had one capacitor that had leaked and an entire leg had rotted off.

Yeah, that and the parts are becoming obscure and too expensive. I might end up having to convert to some aftermarket EFI system should ours shit the bed. Shouldn't have any issue getting parts for our LS equipped stuff, but the Ford SEFI and GM TBI stuff we've got rolling around has me thinking...

Also depends where you read. Over on that GMT400 forum, tons of good ole boys slappin' carbs down.

Still see plenty GMT400s rolling around down here. Not sure if TBI or Vortec, but usually the TBI ones I met were pretty robust unless people started monkeying about on the engine wiring or trying to delete things they thought weren't useful. Wonder if those GM ECUs have the same capacitor issue period Ford boards might also have... I mean an electrolytic capacitor life span based on operating conditions is perhaps 30-ish years?



I agree with gadget that it's just kinda silly where we stand. However, I will make a concession point, the demand and likelihood to find these cars (or similar period cars) at a shop is incredibly low due to being turned away for age unless its somewhere that specializes in '40s-'80s stuff, and actually is worth their salt.

[gadget73]

Doesn't make sense for anything other than a specialty shop but there always used to be the "I know a guy" thing. Now nobody does. I think they're all gone at this point and nobody picked it up.

[slack]

I agree with gadget that it's just kinda silly where we stand. However, I will make a concession point, the demand and likelihood to find these cars (or similar period cars) at a shop is incredibly low due to being turned away for age unless its somewhere that specializes in '40s-'80s stuff, and actually is worth their salt.

I actually just experienced this on a 'newer' car (newer to me at least...). My wife's 2004 Buick was due for an inspection so I brought it to this shop her parents use. When talking to the guy, he said he was happy to do the inspection but tries not to touch anything over 20 years old for repair work due to the fact they can end up costing him money when things go wrong or he can't find parts.

I wouldn't have been surprised if a shop told me that for my 87 or 78 but for a 2004 it made me feel like that Matt Damon gif. lol It didn't really hit me that 2004 was 21 years ago until he said that.

[DerekTheGreat]

...Still see plenty GMT400s rolling around down here. Not sure if TBI or Vortec, but usually the TBI ones I met were pretty robust unless people started monkeying about on the engine wiring or trying to delete things they thought weren't useful. Wonder if those GM ECUs have the same capacitor issue period Ford boards might also have... I mean an electrolytic capacitor life span based on operating conditions is perhaps 30-ish years?


I agree with gadget that it's just kinda silly where we stand. However, I will make a concession point, the demand and likelihood to find these cars (or similar period cars) at a shop is incredibly low due to being turned away for age unless its somewhere that specializes in '40s-'80s stuff, and actually is worth their salt.

The salt is eating the older ones away. Aside from my truck, most have the roundy, later dash and so I assume those are Vortecs. They're becoming harder to find at yards too, I remember when there were practically rows of 'em. I haven't had an ECM failure in a GMT400 or my Firebird. I've had the truck some seven or eight years now, I've never even had the ECM out. Wouldn't surprise me if it was rebuilt at some point.

Doesn't make sense for anything other than a specialty shop but there always used to be the "I know a guy" thing. Now nobody does. I think they're all gone at this point and nobody picked it up.

I think we're the ones who have picked it up, whether we want to or not. I struggle with the want & not.

I actually just experienced this on a 'newer' car (newer to me at least...). My wife's 2004 Buick was due for an inspection so I brought it to this shop her parents use. When talking to the guy, he said he was happy to do the inspection but tries not to touch anything over 20 years old for repair work due to the fact they can end up costing him money when things go wrong or he can't find parts.

I wouldn't have been surprised if a shop told me that for my 87 or 78 but for a 2004 it made me feel like that Matt Damon gif. lol It didn't really hit me that 2004 was 21 years ago until he said that.

Haha, yeah I can relate to this as well. I think of my wife's 2002 Tahoe as a new car, I remember the turds when I was in high school. But damn, that's 23 years ago now. Wild.

[gadget73]

yeah, I have frequently told people that if they want to have an older car, they need to know or become a competent mechanic otherwise it is not going to go well. The weirder the car, the more likely its going to be owner-maintained.

[DerekTheGreat]

Yeah, unfortunate but true statement.

"Complete Auto Service" states the sign out front. ::potential customer asks dude at counter if they'll drill out exhaust manifold bolts and redo them here or if they'll swap an engine.::
"We don't get into that."
"But the s-- never mind.. Do you know a shop which might?"
"You could try The Crusty Sphincter on the intersection of his-balls-at-your-chin."
"Th-thanks. I'll give them a call.."

[Kodachrome Wolf]

Got some good news in the A/C department...

Replaced the expansion valve:


Vacuumed the system down, verified it held, and started charging the system back:




System blowing cool at about 87 degrees ambient. Unfortunately I'm about 2 cans short of what I needed for a recharge; thought I had more, but definitely didn't, so I've ordered some more.

Not R-134a, or R-12, but the 12a substitute stuff just to see how it does, specifically the Duracool branded stuff. There's a little magic to how all the measurements cut, since these cans hold 6oz but apparently make up the equivalent of 19oz of R-12, and they claim it needs only about 35% of 12a as compared to R-12. With a system capacity labeled for 4LBS of R-12, I think the math with this stuff is right about 3-1/2 cans for a Panther with a A6 compressor.

I am aware this is a hydrocarbon refrigerant, and does contain a flammability risk. I know outside of the US, this has been used generally without issue for R-12 systems, and the amount in the system should not even exceed 24oz total.

[Tiggie]

I use a similar refrigerant in the 68 and 90. Both have issues freezing the evaporator, but the 90 does absurdly well with the max setting on. Not sure what's wrong with the 68. I figured it may have been an issue with the expansion valve having a different gas in it than what was in the system. Interested to know how yours does once you get it up to capacity.

[gadget73]

Low pressure = overly cold. Probably related to the expansion valve. Those are intended to target a specific operating pressure and since pressure is temperature, it controls the temperature. If the refrigerant in use is colder at whatever pressure the expansion valve is designed to run at than R12, you get freezing. Under-charging can do that too.

Sometimes expansion valves are adjustable but this one doesn't appear to be. Normally it'll be a large nut opposite the diaphragm that adjusts tension on a spring. Expansion valves are a better design than fixed orifice since it will modulate refrigerant flow to maintain a more consistent vent temperature but the down side is they are designed to operate with a specific refrigerant, or at least with a refrigerant with a specific temperature vs pressure curve.

[Kodachrome Wolf]

So I think I’ve metered roughly 3-1/2 cans into the system, which comes out roughly to the expected equivalent of R12 charge at 4 to 4.25 LBS, even though the total of 12a is closer to 1.2 LBS.

At 92 degrees with 50% humidity, low side pressure at idle was about 48 PSI. Center vent outlet temp according to my IR gun seemed wrong since it was saying 28 degrees, but felt warmer than displayed, so I’ll need a second opinion from another thermometer.

Still, the air was modestly cold at idle. Going down the road with more air passing over the condenser definitely shifted the temp from modest to very cold. From an opinion perspective, I’d argue at speed the air blows colder than the ‘87 running R-134a and the heater core shutoff, and that certainly got cold.

So far, no freeze up conditions. Low pressure metal lines certainly are covered in condensation, but no frost. However, I’ll keep an eye on performance in the slightly milder months and if there’s any freeze up issues then.

[Kodachrome Wolf]

Rode up to Nick's over the 4th of July weekend to catch up and also get a few things from him.

There was a '82 LTD in the junkyard and he grabbed the tail lights and grille off of it. Figured it didn't hurt to have some driver condition spare LTD script tail lights and the one year only mesh grille with the Ford oval. He also grabbed some police sway bars off a '91 that landed there a bit earlier.

I put a handling package rear bar on this car right after I got it, but going to the police bar was more worthwhile. Plus, one of Nick's friends was looking for a bar for his station wagon, so that handling package bar went along to its new owner.


The police rear bar coupled with the wagon front bar feels really good when pushing through corners at speed. The handling package bar was worthy enough over nothing, but this is better.


A/C worked really good over the whole trip, no issues. Still has the temperature wander when idling for a good moment, but it stays cool enough not to be uncomfortable.

[Kodachrome Wolf]

One more change...


Buzzed off those rusty exhaust pencil tips I never liked for slightly more conventional turn downs. Of note, I realize they are not tucked as high as they really should be, but that's just the nature of how the exhaust system is hung at the back since it's not original. Secondly, I also know a early Box should have a side exit exhaust much like a single pipe station wagon, but I don't think I'll be that fussy about that specific detail. Otherwise, I think for the time being, this setup looks a bit more appropriate.

[Tiggie]

I agree with your taste in exhaust!
The rearmost side exit on the early sedans is odd. Never cared for that look.