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    #1

    Engine stalling, got codes.

    Hi. My car is an 89 Grand Marquis that I converted to HO. Computer is a speed density unit from a Mark VII. HO cam, intake, TB. 19 lb injectors.

    For the past several months it's had a problem with the engine cutting out. No real pattern to it in terms of temperature, driving conditions, etc. Sometimes it was at low cruising speed, sometimes motoring down the highway. Never under hard acceleration. I could pretty much always mash the gas pedal and sorta power through it. I would occasionally check and/or clear the codes. The only codes I consistently got were 41 and 91. However along the way, I did replace the ignition wires, cap, rotor, EGR position sensor and recently the TPS. Maybe 2-3 times during this period the engine died at a stoplight.

    I got suspicious of the fuel pump, because of the 41/91, and because when the problem would occur it felt like it was running out of gas. Also, one day last week it was cutting out and I noticed the fuel pump was extra extra loud. It was a stock replacement pump listed for the Grand Marquis. I put it in a couple years ago. This weekend I replaced it with a pump listed for an 89 Mustang. Per the specs listed by O'Reilly, the Merc pump is 13 gph and the Mustang one is 18 gph.

    It is driving better. Idles better, revs up quicker, seems to have more torque. So far I don't think it has cut out while cruising. But yesterday and today, both while on the way home from work, it died repeatedly at stop lights. This was with a well warmed-up engine after 30 minutes or so of driving. It was really running like crap. Started right back up every time and by the time I got home it was running smoothly again.

    I wish I had, but I did not clear the codes when I did the fuel pump job. Yesterday I checked the codes and got the following:

    KOEO
    91 41 54 31

    KOER
    41 91

    I did the Self Test and got 9..... 9....., which I assume is 90 (PASS).

    The EVP is basically brand new. The ACT is maybe 4 years old.

    Any recommendations?
    Tags: None
    #2
    I have had a couple things make my car stall at stops, neither one might be your issue but they are both easy to try/check.
    A dirty IAC was the culprit in one case. I removed, cleaned up, and re-installed the IAC and that was all I needed.
    Timing was the culprit in another case. I borrowed my dad's timing light and found my timing was off (I had swapped the distributor the day before and didn't check timing with the light). After correcting the timing I was good to go.

    As for the codes, I don't know enough to say anything about them. There is a list of codes on the Old Fuel Injection archive here on the forum.
    Codes 11-32
    Codes 33-58
    Codes 59-74
    Codes 75-99
    Vic

    ~ 1989 MGM LS Colony Park - Large Marge
    ~ 1998 MGM LS - new DD
    ~ 1991 MGM LS "The Scab"
    ~ 1991 MGM GS "The Ice Car"

    Comment

      #3
      In addition to what Vic said, you could look into swapping out your TFI module & map sensor with known good ones to see if that changes anything. How's your 02 sensor? Running like crap when hot could be related to that, temp sensor and other things.. Here's some junk for reference:

      EGR position sensor:
      D shaped plug, voltage reference pin (Vref) is the right most pin. Manual states you need to connect a vacuum pump to it and apply vacuum up to 10 in.-Hg (33kPa) while an ohm meter is attached to measure the resistance, which should gradually decrease from no more than 5,500 ohms to no less than 100 ohms and vacuum is gradually applied.

      Engine coolant temperature sensor:
      Upside down "Q" looking plug. With pins facing you the signal is the upper pin and the return is the lower one. Manual states that to pass the test the engine temp must be either: 1) key on, engine off with coolant between 50 & 240 degrees F 2) engine running, coolant between 180 & 240 F.
      Using an ohm meter typical resistance between the two pins is: @50F: 58,750ohms , @65F: 40,500ohms , @180F: 3600ohms , @220F: 1840ohms.

      MAP sensor:
      Reverse facing "D" looking plug. Three pins, bottom is Vref & top is signal return.
      Approximate altitude (Ft) of 0, the voltage output from the sensor should be 1.59v, +/- 0.04v. This voltage will decrease by 0.03v per every 1000ft above 0.

      Throttle position sensor:
      Two connectors shown here, I think mine is the "Q" shaped deal. Upside down Q connector's Vref pin is the leftmost one, with the top pin being signal return.
      Manual doesn't state a range but states that with the engine off, key on the voltage at the sensor should be between 4 & 6 volts.
      1985 LTD Crown Victoria - SOLD
      1988 Town Car Signature - Current Party Barge

      Comment

        #4
        I should add that when I clean the IAC I usually clean the throttle body (if needed) and the EGR, might as well clean it all while I'm there. I suppose that could mean it wasn't solely the dirty IAC in my case.
        Vic

        ~ 1989 MGM LS Colony Park - Large Marge
        ~ 1998 MGM LS - new DD
        ~ 1991 MGM LS "The Scab"
        ~ 1991 MGM GS "The Ice Car"

        Comment

          #5
          Have you ever considered replacing the fuel pump relay? A flaky one will make the pump randomly shut off, and it will never set a specific code for it. Ever checked the connections on the inertia switch cutout in the trunk? I'm the only one I've known to have had problems with that inertia switch, but mine was giving me shit. Car would randomly not start. When I unplugged it to replace it I found the connector was half melted from making bad contact.
          86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
          5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

          91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

          1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

          Originally posted by phayzer5
          I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

          Comment

            #6
            Thanks for the replies. O2 sensors are less than 3 years old. Fuel pump relay is maybe 6 months old - I forgot that I replaced it chasing this problem. I did eyeball the inertia switch once and couldn't find a reason to suspect it.

            Today at lunch I cleared the codes. Driving home it had a few minor cut-outs while cruising but did not stall at lights. I just drove it again and the CEL came on twice briefly. I'll check codes tomorrow and report back.

            I will check/clean the TB, IAC, and EGR this weekend.

            Comment

              #7
              I had to clean the relay contacts as well on my 93. The contacts in the relay holder. I actually stuck a very flat file down those things and etched off the oxidation. But I also needed to replace the ECM/PCM relay too. They both went bad (intermittent) at about the same time. So I don't know if I really needed to do the file trick or not. Probably not. The new relays work a treat.

              Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
              rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
              Originally posted by gadget73
              ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
              Originally posted by dmccaig
              Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

              Comment

                #8
                Just checked codes:

                32. EGR Valve Position/Pressure Feedback EGR Voltage Below Closed Voltage
                54. Intake Air Temperature/Air Charge Temperature Circuit Open

                Comment

                  #9
                  ACT is located on the intake manifold between cylinder 5 and 6. Check the connector and wires to make sure it's connected and the wire's aren't kinked (possibly broken internally) or chewed up.

                  Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
                  rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
                  Originally posted by gadget73
                  ... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
                  Originally posted by dmccaig
                  Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Both of those sensors run through the two large connectors hanging on the wiper cowl, as do all of the injectors. Might be worth cleaning those out.


                    http://www.grandmarq.net/oldfuelinjection/page85.html
                    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
                    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

                    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry

                    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

                    Originally posted by phayzer5
                    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

                    Comment

                      #11
                      I think I got over the hump with this problem. I didn't want to post too soon and jinx myself but I'm 9 days in and it's driving great.

                      Last weekend I cleaned out the TB, EGR, and the IAC. The TB wasn't bad because I clean it semi-regularly but the IAC was fairly nasty. I took the solenoid off of it and pushed the plunger by hand. Sprayed TB cleaner in it and scrubbed it out with a toothbrush. I also noticed that the electrical connector on the IAC was pretty corroded. I used a tiny file and scraped the terminal blades as clean as I could get them. In the EGR position sensor connector, I closed up the female pins a bit. Cleared the codes.

                      No CEL, no stalling, no cutting-out since. Engine runs so much better with the Mustang fuel pump. If you've done an HO swap, or are planning one, PLEASE do yourself a favor and upgrade the fuel pump too. I wish I'd done it the first time around.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Good to hear things are working better so far.
                        I've also done a thorough cleaning of the IAC with a toothbrush like you described, it can be a little tedious but provides the best results when the IAC needs cleaning.
                        Even if it was only the electrical connections that needed some cleaning, having a clean IAC should keep you running smooth for a while.
                        Vic

                        ~ 1989 MGM LS Colony Park - Large Marge
                        ~ 1998 MGM LS - new DD
                        ~ 1991 MGM LS "The Scab"
                        ~ 1991 MGM GS "The Ice Car"

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by pollock View Post
                          I think I got over the hump with this problem. I didn't want to post too soon and jinx myself but I'm 9 days in and it's driving great.

                          Last weekend I cleaned out the TB, EGR, and the IAC. The TB wasn't bad because I clean it semi-regularly but the IAC was fairly nasty. I took the solenoid off of it and pushed the plunger by hand. Sprayed TB cleaner in it and scrubbed it out with a toothbrush. I also noticed that the electrical connector on the IAC was pretty corroded. I used a tiny file and scraped the terminal blades as clean as I could get them. In the EGR position sensor connector, I closed up the female pins a bit. Cleared the codes.

                          No CEL, no stalling, no cutting-out since. Engine runs so much better with the Mustang fuel pump. If you've done an HO swap, or are planning one, PLEASE do yourself a favor and upgrade the fuel pump too. I wish I'd done it the first time around.

                          Was the fuel pump a direct fit or did you have to adapt it?



                          87 Ford LTD Crown Victoria Country Squire Station Wagon. 4.10's, Repacked Trac Loc, Boxed LCA's, Explorer Intake, 65mm T-body, 'Stang Cam, 'Stang Air tube, K&N, GT-40X Heads, 1" Spacer, 1 5/8 BBK's, 2.5" Pypes X-pipe w/high flow cats, Single Chamber Thunderbolts, B&M 'vertor, Po-lice Swaybars.

                          91 Mercury Grand Marquis Colony Park Station Wagon. K-Code, 4.10's, Repacked Trac Loc, MK VII LSC Engine, 'Stang Upper Intake, Stang Air Tube, K&N, 65 mm T-Body, 'Stang Headers, 'Stang Cat Pipe,'Stang Torque Convertor, 2 Chamber Thunderbolts.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by mitymerc View Post
                            Was the fuel pump a direct fit or did you have to adapt it?
                            Not a direct fit - it's smaller in length and diameter than the original pump. I used the threads below as a reference. Not much to it - a section of radiator hose, a length of 5/16 fuel line, longer wires, and an extra hose clamp.

                            Fuel Pump Upgrade - GrandMarq.NET - Panther Headquarters
                            http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthread.php?49198-Fuel-Pump-Upgrade
                            For discussions on performance modifications to the 5.0/5.8 engine. Includes engine swaps and whatever else you can think of.


                            255 fuel pump install - GrandMarq.NET - Panther Headquarters
                            http://www.grandmarq.net/vb/showthread.php?45914-255-fuel-pump-install
                            For discussions on performance modifications to the 5.0/5.8 engine. Includes engine swaps and whatever else you can think of.

                            Comment

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