Frankenstein T-5 Waggin' Chronicle (vast doesnt do it)

[Archangel]

No smog is perfectly fine, as for the EGR you may wanna have a look at this thread.

[Freshmeat]

Thanks for that link, Ivan. I've been doing general thinking about the EGR system and staring at what's on the Exploder motor and I had already come to the decision to keep it. That link really helped in my confidence, though. I was thinking there would be more to it all, but doing my thinking about other random 302 work I've done and seeing different things, I was able to piece together what comprises the EGR system...

but it appears that the Explorer has supplemental EGR piping coming from the exhaust manifold up into the upper manifold. Is that what it is or is that what Ford used to replace the smog pump?

[Archangel]

I'll have to look at a friend's Explorer to see what exactly you're talking about, but I assume it's more EGR than smog - the pressure in the exhaust manifolds and the vacuum in the intake makes for only one direction of airflow, and that's for the exhaust up to the intake. The smog works almost the opposite way, it's supposed to feed fresh air down the exhaust. My opinion, don' even bother with the smog stuff, just to the vacuum plumbing like I did and you'll be fine. Also for the vac lines it doesn't really matter where the EGR valve is getting the exhaust gases from, I'd assume if the motor's in stock form it already has everything it needs, and you only need to hook up the vacuum controls.

Oh, and the vacuum parts on the fender were already there, I just took the old system apart and used whatever I needed, the extra lines I threw away (too old to save), and the rubber 90-degree plugs I saved for if I ever need them again. You system should be similar, maybe a little differently positioned, but you should be able to find it and play with it pretty easily.

[Freshmeat]

Well... the piping comes off the manifold itself (passenger side, when you look at your friend's) up to a valve that appears to feed into the intake elbow. Does that sound right?

Problem is, I'm almost positive the new headers won't have a provision for that tubing- what can be done?

I wish my son hadn't broken my digital camera...

[Mercracer]

So, Mercracer- you're saying just cut it out entirely? Eliminate both smog pump and EGR systems?
Would it run okay without both systems?

Yes........ditch the EGR and pick up a few HP with a cooler/denser air charge....that is unless you are going to be pulling 5000lb trailers around on a regular basis and don't care about a few HP ......then there MAY be some justification for an EGR.

[Freshmeat]

Yes........ditch the EGR and pick up a few HP with a cooler/denser air charge....that is unless you are going to be pulling 5000lb trailers around on a regular basis and don't care about a few HP ......then there MAY be some justification for an EGR.

You say that, but how would it actually be removed if the EGR nipples are still in the exhaust ports on the heads and it's basically all inside the heads and intake? How would you expect me to plug all that?

I do plan to use the wagon to tow a CJ, when I get back into off-roading, not to mention I'd rather keep the EGR to ensure reliability and the fact I'd most likely be one of the random guys that has problems, and not be able to get it right, again.

[Mercracer]

No smog is perfectly fine, as for the EGR you may wanna have a look at this thread.

Did you read the thread yourself?

for purely a performance standpoint, its without a doubt better to run without it.

I leave the valve hooked up to my harness, but there is no exhaust making its way to the upper intake. The computer is happy, and the engine is happy.

[Freshmeat]

So, all you did is remove the tubing running up to the valve?

I read most of the thread, but I have a short attention span, so didn't touch the second page.

I was thinking about removing that tubing, since it'd require going to an exhaust shop to have it replaced with something long enough to reach the exhaust pipes.

[Mercracer]

[You say that, but how would it actually be removed if the EGR nipples are still in the exhaust ports on the heads and it's basically all inside the heads and intake? How would you expect me to plug all that?.

You really need to open an engine up at least once yourself before you do too much second guessing of the advice you are getting.

Take a peek dude...... PICS PICS see the hole in the center of the upper intake between the front 4 ports and the rear 4 ports? That is how the EGR gasses get to your upper intake. Take a peek at the picture of the lower intake....there is no hole. This is a lower from an early Explorer with external EGR. These are the lowers I prefer to use. I also throw a phenolic spacer between the upper and lower. I like my uppers cool.
What on God's green earth is a EGR nipple? On your stock CV heads there are air injection holes in the exhaust ports. There are NO holes in the ports of P heads. That is one of the reasons they flow so well. I will get a picture of the Exhaust channel going from the center exhaust ports to the intake manifold on each side. This is for warm up and cold weather driving and what the manifold taps off for internal EGR.

[Mercracer]

So, all you did is remove the tubing running up to the valve?.

WHEN you finally remove your upper intake, you will see whether you have an internal EGR passage. If so, take a pipe plug and plug the single hole in the center of your lower intake. Like I mentioned, I use the lowers with no hole.

[Freshmeat]

You really need to open an engine up at least once yourself before you do too much second guessing of the advice you are getting.

Okay- first off, lighten up. I've disassembled and reassembled several 302s in my short mechanical history. I ask questions because I am a thorough individual. If I didn't think you know what you're talking about, I would have told you to shut the Hell up and go away. I haven't said that, which means I respect what you're saying to me. Either way, I've trained myself to ask questions when I don't understand things and keep asking until I do understand.

There are NO holes in the ports of P heads. That is one of the reasons they flow so well. I will get a picture of the Exhaust channel going from the center exhaust ports to the intake manifold on each side. This is for warm up and cold weather driving and what the manifold taps off for internal EGR.

I was told by several sources that the holes are there, but not as pronounced as on previous head models, which is why I asked. If you can get pictures, they'd help- I'm very visual.

[Archangel]

Did you read the thread yourself?

Don't go postal on me now, yes I read the thread, and I don't think it says anything about the smog junk. As far as EGR is concerned, I just provided it as a food for thought, the way I see it there's no such thing as too much information

I leave the valve hooked up to my harness, but there is no exhaust making its way to the upper intake. The computer is happy, and the engine is happy.

Yep, that'd probably be what I'd do if I were to delete the EGR. Got a queastion though, consider the following situation: you're crusing, the EVR applies vacuum, the EGR valve opens up, the computer detects that, assumes there are exhaust gases going through, leans up the mixture and bumps up the timing, HOWEVER since you've plugged the lower intake's exhaust gas passages the only gas getting in the combustion chambers is fresh air - won't that lead to a way lean mixture? Just asking cause I don't really know all the ECM uses as inputs to adjust the mixture...

[Mercracer]

I was told by several sources that the holes are there, but not as pronounced as on previous head models, which is why I asked. If you can get pictures, they'd help- I'm very visual.

I may have been a bit harsh, but from the start it has appeared that this is your first project. There has been alot of info thrown your way and I am not sure that you have payed attention to all of it. You can choose to go off on your own and ignore the advice of others, but at least take the time to understand it.

I linked to my pictures at least twice.....once in this thread even....yes there are NO holes..........

[Freshmeat]

I may have been a bit harsh, but from the start it has appeared that this is your first project. There has been alot of info thrown your way and I am not sure that you have payed attention to all of it. You can choose to go off on your own and ignore the advice of others, but at least take the time to understand it.

You're wrong... but also right.

I've replaced 302 motors at least half a dozen times, each time buying a short block and having the heads reworked. However, they were always stock rebuilds, as my mother likes to discredit my mechanical ability and is a MAJOR pain in the ass when I'm attempting to do modifications. For example, she paid $2500 to replace the motor in the Mustang I mentioned in my other thread, but it was crap and the shop went under before legal action took place. I disassembled it, had the short block rebuilt locally, and reinstalled it. Took two months to do that. She didn't say a thing. I parked it in the garage for two days to upgrade to a better Holley carb and at the end of the second day (I'd spend the two days at a friend's house studying and rebuilding the carb) I got home to find a tow truck attempting to make off with the car. She said I shouldn't be doing anything that wasn't original because I don't know what I'm doing.

How am I going to learn if I don't try?

That's why I'm here. I am no longer under her rule (she still tries- I hate moms that can't let go), so I'm attempting to do a justice to my wagon by installing a motor and transmission that can do the job.

I've swapped several motors, as I've mentioned, but they've been easy, because all I had to do was look in the Chilton/Haynes/whatever POS material I had laying around and put it back the way Ford did it.

This is far from my typical mechanical parameters, so I am having a blast learning everything I can. You're right that I've had A LOT of information thrown my way, but I'd say I'm absorbing the majority of it really well. Problem is, some times I'm told something about one thing that can actually apply to another, but I haven't done this sort of thing enough to realize that.

Does that make sense and help you understand my mechanical situation and why you may randomly notice harsh mentionings of my mother?

Edit: ...and I'm not sure where you got that about going off and ignoring the advice of others... I don't ignore any advice. Knowledgeable advice is information and information is the greatest, most underestimated resource available to humanity.

[Mercracer]

the way I see it there's no such thing as too much information

since you've plugged the lower intake's exhaust gas passages the only gas getting in the combustion chambers is fresh air - won't that lead to a way lean mixture?

There really is such a thing as too much information if it only adds to confusion. Just like too many choices is bad if it is difficult to determine the best choice as there are many good choices.
If your oxygen sensors are operating properly, you should not have a problem with a lean mixture due to no EGR gasses.