More cooling system issues

[1987cp]

Quite possible the cap is going bad, but that'd just lead to excessive leakage at the cap (and into the overflow tank), not causing the water pump to blow its front seal.

For what it matters, I know from experience that water pump replacement at 90k miles and 10 years old isn't unheard of. (Mechanic: "See that there where the antifreeze is coming out? That's called a weephole." Me: "What's the weephole supposed to do?" Mechanic: "It's not supposed to do anything, but when coolant comes out there it's time to replace the pump!")

Also for what it's worth, I once went to the hassle of pulling a water pump and completely resealing the back of it and reinstalling it, only to find that it really had been leaking from the lower weephole to start with.

[andymac0035]

Mechanic: "See that there where the antifreeze is coming out? That's called a weephole." Me: "What's the weephole supposed to do?" Mechanic: "It's not supposed to do anything, but when coolant comes out there it's time to replace the pump

I actually PM'ed both Scott and Thain asking the same question because I didn't understand what that meant (till now) either.....and they basically said the same thing as you just did.

The seal inside the pump is starting to give up. Its not completely and totally gone yet, but its starting to leak. Give it some time, it will eventually get to the point where it starts dripping every time you shut the motor off, then eventually it will get to the point of dripping while running, and maybe if you're extremely unlucky and let it go for a really long time, it will get to the point of pissing coolant constantly.

Going forward from the impeller, right inside the snout on the pump there is a seal, then a bearing, then air, then another bearing (or they may be bronze bushings, I've never pressed apart a 302 pump). The weep hole is in the air space, so when coolant starts coming out there, it means the inner seal has failed and its starting to push coolant through the inner bearing. Its basically a built in trouble indicator. If it weren't there, the inner seal could fail, and there would be no warning until either the bearing got so loud it could not be ignored, the bearing self destructed, or it managed to push coolant through both bearings and start dumping coolant out around the shaft. Its basically a "hey, something's worn out" indicator so you can take care of it before it becomes an "oh shit, now what?" situation. If allowed to go way too long, the shaft will actually shove forward out of the pump and it will puke a huge amount of coolant out in a very short time. I had a pump start to fail on my boat like that and I kept ignoring it, figuring since it was seawater cooled, the drip wasn't a big deal. 3 months later the seal on the front of the pump blew out, the shaft came forward, and the pump impeller jammed against the housing.

[Lincolnmania]

pick up a water pump to heater pipe hose and you are good to go for up front there
yes i know i ride everyone about hoses....it is hard to get the little hoses off without destroying them sometimes......i've been there many times where i think i saved the hose and as the cars warming up it starts pissing coolant.....just not worth the headache considering how much trouble those two hoses are to get at.

[andymac0035]

Hey Scott, you know what's kinda' funny?
I was looking at the front of my engine today and noticed the very hose you just mentioned. I new about the little 90 degree elbow, but not the other one....and it looks kinda scary too.

What are the "official" part names of those two little buggers?
I'm gonna' make sure I get new one's of those.

......and don't sweat naggin' on the hoses.....your right.

Oh and this was funny today.....
My wife, who is basically the finacial manager of things (yeah, I know, but she's actually pretty good at it)......asked me:
"why can't you use the water pump off the lincoln?" (her Dad's 90' LSC parts car)
....Well after I got done rolling my eyes....I explained to her about the fact that that car had 168k on it......
Then again......at that mileage it must have been changed at least once......LOL

[1987cp]

The best way to get the right hoses at the parts store is to take in the old ones. At least half the time I find that the computer system is completely opaque regarding what goes where, and it's rare that the counter guy will know the difference. Heck, when my dad was shopping for transaxle shaft seals for his Saturn, the counter people showing us pictures of the seals in cross-section didn't even know to tell us that the picture was a cross-section!

I'm pretty sure your Mark VII water pump is reverse-rotation, too ... if so, in order to use it you'd have to swap everything over to a Fox style serpentine system! I've also gotten the "Don't you have one of those already?" question on various occasions, though.

Its basically a "hey, something's worn out" indicator so you can take care of it before it becomes an "oh shit, now what?" situation.

That is very well put!

[andymac0035]

I'm pretty sure your Mark VII water pump is reverse-rotation

Now your going to get me paranoid about getting the wrong pump.......

I picked up my new water pump today and ordered those 2 smaller hoses.
Brought the parts guy right out to the car and pointed out exactly which ones I wanted.

Started putting PB blaster on the bolts today too!

[Lincolnmania]

Hey Scott, you know what's kinda' funny?
I was looking at the front of my engine today and noticed the very hose you just mentioned. I new about the little 90 degree elbow, but not the other one....and it looks kinda scary too.

What are the "official" part names of those two little buggers?
I'm gonna' make sure I get new one's of those.

......and don't sweat naggin' on the hoses.....your right.

Oh and this was funny today.....
My wife, who is basically the finacial manager of things (yeah, I know, but she's actually pretty good at it)......asked me:
"why can't you use the water pump off the lincoln?" (her Dad's 90' LSC parts car)
....Well after I got done rolling my eyes....I explained to her about the fact that that car had 168k on it......
Then again......at that mileage it must have been changed at least once......LOL

the mk7 water pump also turns the wrong way.......good you didnt try it!

the official names for the hoses are as follows
front of motor:
1:bypass hose
2: water pump to heater pipe

the rest of the heater hoses on your 90:
1: intake to valve (if it has atc)
2: valve to core
3: pipe to core

[mfmagicmike]

Here are some further tips (at least I hope some will be useful), since I had to do that job not to long ago:

Changing the water pump is clearly a DIY job, but make sure to have plenty of time to do it (a week-end or so).
Step 1
At first You´ll have to take out everything located in front of Your pump, which basically means everything that is in front of the engine. Because of this I would suggest to have a biiiig piece of cardboard or to spread old newspapers somewhere on the floor, on which You can deposit every part or bolt or screw You are going to take out of the car and write a small memo beside them, just to know where everything is once You are done with the pump, and where it has to go back to (this will save You a lot of time). It is imperative that You do the same thing with the water pump retaining bolts: they all have different lengths and must exactly go back where they came from. The smartest way not to mix them up is to draw the contour of the new pump + bolt holes on some cardboard, and when removing the bolts one by one store them in the matching location in the perforated cardboard holes.

Step 2
Drain the coolant (of course)
Lift the front of the car safely on jackstands
Disconnect negative cable from battery
And get going! Remove fan shroud, fan, clutch and drivebelt, pulley,
Disconnect steering pump pressure and return hoses, remove steering pump and bracket, remove bracket going to the AC compressor, and You pretty much should be there.
Personnaly I would recommend NOT to use an impact gun on any bolt of the engine compartment, especially not on the water pump retaining bolts (they break).
Anti seize compound is recommended for rusting bolts (for the upcoming timing chain and cover job).
In my personal experience a good way to clean gasket surfaces after scraping of the old one is to hone them with and old brake pad, if You have one.
As already mentioned in a previous post, don´t forget to put gasket sealant on both sides of the water pump gasket.
When You´ re done, put everything back together and torque bolts as specified.

Since You´re in there how about a new thermostat? (5 USD part)

I hope this helps, off course many recommendations must seem obvious, and I apologize in advance for that.

[andymac0035]

I hope this helps, off course many recommendations must seem obvious, and I apologize in advance for that.

No need to apologize at all. I appreciate your thoroughness.
I would much rather people told me every little thing rather than leave some little (or not so little) thing out and assume I already know it.

I'm not sure I understand why I need to put the car on jackstands though. I was able to get under there just fine to change the radiator. I mean, other than disconnecting a few hoses under there.....isn't most of this job done from above?

[andymac0035]

Oh........and the thermostat is new.

What are the touque specs for the waterpump?
I do have a good feel for tourqing something by hand.....but I also have a tourque wrench.

[1987cp]

I'm not sure I understand why I need to put the car on jackstands though. I was able to get under there just fine to change the radiator. I mean, other than disconnecting a few hoses under there.....isn't most of this job done from above?

Pretty much. If you can get to the lower radiator hose at the water pump end without raising the car, there's probably no need to raise it. I for one hate trying to work on the top end with the car in the air, because I'm forever climbing on one sort of makeshift stepstool or other, then finding myself dangling awkwardly on the edge of the fender as the sideways wheel ramp or whatever it was kind of tips out of the way. :p


Random thought, a couple years ago I bought myself a nice piece of 3/8" or so clear vinyl tubing, and I like to use that to siphon the radiator neatly into a bucket or a few 2L bottles instead of messing with the drain cock, further contaminating the coolant, and making a mess all over the driveway and the underside of the car. Since you can see where the liquid is, you can even get away with starting the siphon by mouth.

[andymac0035]

That's a good thought on the tubing. What I did last time was use a short piece of tubing and put it over the petcock.....and drained it into a few gallon jugs I had cleaned up.

I mostly didn't want to raise the car because I don't want to start it tomorrow......and then have to wait for it to cool off. I got it parked right where I want it.

.......But your comments on the matter have me wondering how tall you are?......:p

[andymac0035]

Well, the job is underway and going well so far.

I have: the 1st belt off, fan+pully off, shroud off, and ALL the water pump nuts broke loose.

......Yup, nuts.....There are studs with nuts not bolts.
Is this a 91' thing(?) or what since everyone said I'd see all these different length bolts.
To be fair.....there are all different length studs.

Some of the A/C bracket stuff is soaking in PB blaster at the moment.

The (new) waterpump has a metal plate on the back of it. This is held on with two bolts towards the bottom. (it came this way)
There is a gasket in between. Should I take this apart and add RTV to both sides of it?
The parts store guys are saying "no", just the pump gasket that goes on the motor.

In other words there are two gaskets, one already assembled on the pump, and the one that goes between the pump assy and the timing cover (that you guys said to use RTV on both sides of)

What do you guys say??

[andymac0035]

Well, I just got schooled..........once you start taking brakets off you see hex-heads at the base of the "studs".....so looks like I'm far from out of the woods on this one.

[86VickyLX]

That is what I figured.

I have an idea what to expect tackling this job, but have never actually done one (solo that is).
Other than the pump (and timing set if I can afford it).
Are there any other parts I need? (extra gaskets ect..)
Any tips/tricks/things to watch for would be appreciated.


.......Oh and what causes the fluid to come out the weep hole anyways?
(let me guess, it the cars way of telling you the pump is going?)

Don't take that metal plate off!! The water pump shouldn't need any disassembly. For your benefit, use some blue rtv to hold the gasket on the timing cover.