EFI wows, about to scrap it!

[Kodachrome Wolf]

My '87 ran like crap when the pickup in the dizzy failed. I swapped the whole distributor and set the timing and it's been more/less back to normal. FWIW, it ran okay with the SPOUT unplugged with the bad pickup.

[gadget73]

I quit dicking with carbs a long time ago when I realized how much I truly hated them and their general malcontent nature. The EFI on these is pretty reliable and easy to work on once you get a handle on how it works.

The caps on the ECM fail from age, not mileage. It may or may not be the problem, but they are cheap enough to do for S&G.

If the PIP signal is erratic, it screws with the timing and the injector pulses. Pulling the SPOUT makes the ecm unable to tinker with the timing, so it might help mask the bad signals it is getting from the PIP in the first place. The ECM isn't quite smart enough to know when its being fed nonsense sometimes, and it just processes what it gets as real info. Garbage in, garbage out.

[adam.w.ackerman]

I quit dicking with carbs a long time ago when I realized how much I truly hated them and their general malcontent nature. The EFI on these is pretty reliable and easy to work on once you get a handle on how it works.

The caps on the ECM fail from age, not mileage. It may or may not be the problem, but they are cheap enough to do for S&G.

If the PIP signal is erratic, it screws with the timing and the injector pulses. Pulling the SPOUT makes the ecm unable to tinker with the timing, so it might help mask the bad signals it is getting from the PIP in the first place. The ECM isn't quite smart enough to know when its being fed nonsense sometimes, and it just processes what it gets as real info. Garbage in, garbage out.

Truth!


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[kishy]

The distributor is the same for all 302 engines.

I know what you mean, and what you mean is accurate, but that's a really dangerous piece of info the way you've phrased it.

The distributor as a complete assembly (which is how most think of it) is definitely not interchangeable between all, not even all EEC-IV cars, without consideration to the gear that mates with the cam. I suspect you know that but someone landing here from Google in 2 years might not.

[sly]

+1 flat tappet dizzy uses iron gear and roller dizzy uses steel gear. 86+ is roller. Same year split for Mustangs if I remember correctly. I have no clue about anything else (trucks, vans, etc).

[adam.w.ackerman]

I know what you mean, and what you mean is accurate, but that's a really dangerous piece of info the way you've phrased it.

The distributor as a complete assembly (which is how most think of it) is definitely not interchangeable between all, not even all EEC-IV cars, without consideration to the gear that mates with the cam. I suspect you know that but someone landing here from Google in 2 years might not.

Good point


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[DerekTheGreat]

I'm late to the party so everyone else already gave great pointers about the technicals so I'm here to say do not throw a carb on it. Nothing kills my boner more than an EFI car that now has a shitty Edelbrock on it or what have you. Plus, if it's a hobby car that doesn't drive much be prepared to keep the float bowls dry inbetween drives or you better like cleaning the air bleeds and idle circuits and the seat for the float's needle thing. That loved to stick on my old Holley and if I didn't recognize it happening, just imagine gas being poured into the primaries.. Bah. EFI is frustrating at first but so is everything new to us. Give it time, be methodical about it and you will appreciate how simple and reliable these systems really are.

[DezertRunner]

So the consensus here seems:

1, Replace the whole distributor with a new one. I don't see a motorcraft available, so duracrap or M$D?

2, Carb's around here are frowned upon and written off as old junk tech.


I have had many old carb vehlicles and actually am fond of them, current one being a restored 71 Chevy nova 350, love the simplicity to trouble shoot and easy to add power goodies and tune. I will try to hold off for now of scrapping the EFI, and am going to get a OBDI code reader and see what comes up. I can't get a new distributor this weekend anyway unless I go with duracrap since it is all local part stores carry nowadays.

I will report back after the code testing and see what we get...

[sly]

carbs aren't bad if you know what to avoid and how to tune them, but the EFI is more reliable and self tuning and will get better use out of the stock crap.

A standard parts store reman dizzy should work fine. You could rebuild your own, but it's much cheaper to get a reman. I've had zero issue with the Duralast I've used in the past (it's on the Mark VI that sxcpotatoes owns now and the 93 f150 I had) or the BWD ignition module (O'reilly) I put on the Mad Marquis many moons ago (still running as of when I sold it to the folks down the street). Just remember to use a thin coat of thermal grease when mounting the module on the side of the distributor (like coating a computer cpu/heatsink).

[adam.w.ackerman]

It seems to me like you are already set to Carb swap and you want someone, anyone, to validate it.

I will say this: It's your car, do what you want.

no one here that I know of will speak up and tell you that a Carb swap is the solution, because it is not. I also have not seen a single person tell you to swap the distributor! We have said to replace the ICM/TFI and the PIP in the distributor; both parts you can source locally or online, get the motorcraft parts. My statement about "All" distributors working was wrong, but the Dizzy from the mustang will work. A distributor is a body, bushings, gear, shaft, rotor, cap, and the electronics; the only variable in this equation is the electronics! The ICM is a 5 minute job and $25, if it has never been done or you don't know THEN DO IT and see.

If YOU want to Carb swap, then Carb swap; don't look for us to tell you it is a good idea because none of us think it is.

[DezertRunner]

It seems to me like you are already set to Carb swap and you want someone, anyone, to validate it.

I will say this: It's your car, do what you want.

no one here that I know of will speak up and tell you that a Carb swap is the solution, because it is not. I also have not seen a single person tell you to swap the distributor! We have said to replace the ICM/TFI and the PIP in the distributor; both parts you can source locally or online, get the motorcraft parts. My statement about "All" distributors working was wrong, but the Dizzy from the mustang will work. A distributor is a body, bushings, gear, shaft, rotor, cap, and the electronics; the only variable in this equation is the electronics! The ICM is a 5 minute job and $25, if it has never been done or you don't know THEN DO IT and see.

If YOU want to Carb swap, then Carb swap; don't look for us to tell you it is a good idea because none of us think it is.

I know what you mean though, in a sense now it does seem like I have already set my mind on a carb swap. Not that I need anyone to validate it here or there, just after replacing these parts so far and have really gotten no where and keep throwing $ parts to make this system work. I don't have a problem spending money, just as long as I am not wasting money. In the back of my mind I am really thinking how reliable this system really is, or possibly leave me stranded somewhere over a damn sensor/ecu/electronics. I also like the thought of gutting all that crap out of the engine bay and cleaning it up.

Aside from replacing the TFI on the side of a distributor, I have never taken apart and rebuilt the guts of one. Seems counter intuitive when a whole new one can be had for relatively cheap (besides a OEM motorcraft not being available as 1 unit). I have done points though, I am pretty quick on that having a 1952 ford 8n that needs rebuilt/adjusted very often.

[TecNickal]

I think you would benefit from dissassemling your original distributor and installing a Motorcraft PIP. I am not a fan of chineseieum junky parts that puke every 5-10K. Factory stuff lasts 20+ years. I don't like rework.

[adam.w.ackerman]

I would bet money that your problem has always been the module or PIP and while they are all good maintenance items everything else was just throwing parts at an improperly diagnosed issue. I also would not expect codes to point at the module or PIP since the ECM ( as mentioned above) isn't smart enough to know the signal is junk.

Since it runs fine without the spout, which the spout enables the ECM to control time my and removing the spout sets it static, I would surmise again that the problem is the signal the ECM is receiving. This would indicate the pip more than the module; I would still do both because a bad module will still operate for a while but the car will just not run well.

When I bought my Bronco I assumed that the poor condition of the body and lack of maintenance indicated that the OD had rolled at least once and I was buying a truck with 179k on it. Then the module failed and when I replaced it the truck ran like never before! It started better, had more power, and better fuel mileage. Then when I had the pan off and looked the Crank and bearings over I realized I was either looking at a very neglected 79k truck or a reman engine.

My point is that a module can make a tin of difference even if the engine runs.


You couldn't pay me to own another carb vehicle; I would even rather have a GM TBI system. And If I was to go back a Carb it sure as $&@# wouldn't be a Holly!

I even looked at a pre EFI Bronco what was missing the carb and considered spending the $1200 on a edlebrock smart EFI and pump if I could get the truck for under $300 not running.


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[knucklehead0202]

Always start with the cheapest and simplest parts and work your way up. Before going too crazy, definitely change the ect sensor too. My first '90 had a wandering idle that I spent months chasing and changing parts/fixing vacuum leaks, only to be quelled by changing a goddamned $8 part. Live and learn.

[DezertRunner]

I would bet money that your problem has always been the module or PIP and while they are all good maintenance items everything else was just throwing parts at an improperly diagnosed issue. I also would not expect codes to point at the module or PIP since the ECM ( as mentioned above) isn't smart enough to know the signal is junk.

Since it runs fine without the spout, which the spout enables the ECM to control time my and removing the spout sets it static, I would surmise again that the problem is the signal the ECM is receiving. This would indicate the pip more than the module; I would still do both because a bad module will still operate for a while but the car will just not run well.

When I bought my Bronco I assumed that the poor condition of the body and lack of maintenance indicated that the OD had rolled at least once and I was buying a truck with 179k on it. Then the module failed and when I replaced it the truck ran like never before! It started better, had more power, and better fuel mileage. Then when I had the pan off and looked the Crank and bearings over I realized I was either looking at a very neglected 79k truck or a reman engine.

My point is that a module can make a tin of difference even if the engine runs.


You couldn't pay me to own another carb vehicle; I would even rather have a GM TBI system. And If I was to go back a Carb it sure as $&@# wouldn't be a Holly!

I even looked at a pre EFI Bronco what was missing the carb and considered spending the $1200 on a edlebrock smart EFI and pump if I could get the truck for under $300 not running.


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That is why the whole spout connected vs not lead me to believe it is the source, plus the paint pen markings from the junk yard from a 89 mustang HO. I think the PO went that route to achieve a OEM Motorcraft unit even if not new, because a 100% new OEM unit is not available. I have no idea when or how long ago this was done either, PO has passed away and got this gem 1 owner at an estate sale. All the maintenance records were in the glove box from date of purchase at the same dealer for the last 28 years(wow I know), but nothing I saw about a distributor.

Do you think I should roll the dice on a duralast unit? Or wait and order a new TFI and pip to rebuild this one from the junk yard? Part of me says if it was the OEM one for this car, yes rebuild it, but it's not and from a 89 mustang with unknown history.

(P.s. As you can see, I have not 100% given up in making this EFI work and scraping for a carb, yet...)