kishy's 1983 Grand Marquis 2dr

[DerekTheGreat]

Ah, ethanol free. Totally on board with that as I have owned a carpitated car before. I do believe the ethanol accelerates corrosion as it is hygroscopic. The van I rekindled a year or so ago was nearly empty on both tanks, yet no rust in the factory one that I dropped to check. I think the PO had them filled with gas and then drained them before he sold it to me. No way the thing sat for twenty some years with a miniscule amount of gas in both tanks with no rust. That reminds me, the '69 Fury I once owned, that hadn't been on the road since 1981 or 1979. It's original gas tank was a rusty mess. So yeah, the van must've been left sitting full of gas.

[gadget73]

I was also thinking carb dumping fuel problem, but it would only dump the contents of the bowl. Its not gravity fed. A stuck choke will make it run fat and "make oil" though. I remember replacing an engine in a boat that did that. Dude let it "make oil" for 3 years until it wiped out the rod bearing. It had over 2 gallons of fuel/oil mix in something that should have held 5 so it was basically 50/50. Rod bearings were completely hosed. A sniff test will tell you if thats whats going on.

are those power valve carbs? A failed one in a Holley at least will dump loads of fuel down the carb neck.

[jaywish]

The quadrajet will do it also. More common with manual fuel pumps to have a gasket failure and fill the crankcase right up.

[gadget73]

Qjets have issues with the solder in the bottom of the bowls rotting out and causing it to dump down the intake. Can fix it with JB-Weld.

have seen the bad fuel pump thing too, diaphragm ruptures and pumps gas into the block.

[kishy]

Of the two, the carb and the fuel pump, the one which I have not previously messed with is the carb. It got a new fuel pump in 2013 or 14 due to an exterior leak (NAPA-branded Carter as a RockAuto closeout). That's not to say that it isn't the offender this time, but it does tell us the carb needs attention regardless of if the fuel pump also does. I will take the pump off to examine it when I get there.

I did sniff the dipstick and it reeks of gas, so yes, there's definitely gas in the crankcase and maybe not just a tiny bit.

Yes, the 2150 has a power valve.





I went looking for my tote of old fuel system parts and turned up the carb kits (2 of them, both of which I previously opened to study their contents, only one of which the instructions are present for) and two floats. Both are the black plastic-like stuff (nitrophyl?).

Thinking back to the Ranger when it had a carb, I had rebuilt the carb and installed a new float, but some time after that I ran into chronic rich and flood issues where it would just absolutely dump gas in. The new float had sunk. The float I had removed ended up going back in, problem solved. This time, I've put one of the new floats in a glass jar of some old crappy gas and will check it after a couple days to see if it's still floating. Brass floats are sold for these, and they're inexpensive, but as that is not the float design my carb is supposed to use, the instructions will probably give me an inaccurate height to set a brass float. The carb kit is a little harder to get these days, in retail channels, so I suppose it's a good thing I scooped this stuff when I did...literally almost 10 years ago.



My carb, for history's sake, is E3AE-EA.

This setup also has some weird skinny metal tubes connecting some weird lumpy bit that is integral to the exhaust manifold on the passenger side, to the thermactor controls, as well as an actual heat tube for the choke thermostat. I sought to identify this in the past and in retrospect, reply #2 in that thread seems to hit the nail on the head.

[DerekTheGreat]

Yeah, my Fury had a Holley on it. The float would indeed stick and extra gas would just pour out of the boosters. It only made oil once, lol. Hoo-whee did that ever reek. Doesn't take much for it to make the oil stink, but change it I did anyway.

[kishy]

The new float is still floating in the jar, so that's good.

I pulled the fuel pump off, which is a fumbly and mildly frustrating task considering how accessible the pump is. I didn't really know exactly what I was looking for but I had some goals and tried some things:

-I sniffed the crankcase-side of the pump. It smells like gas. But so does the oil, so that doesn't tell us anything.
-The residue inside the casting of the fuel pump where it mates to the timing cover feels more like gas than oil, but again, the oil doesn't feel right either.
-I submerged the pump's pickup side in the jar of gas and although I could get it to dribble the occasional tiny bit of gas, I could not get it to do so consistently, nor could I get it to shoot anything with any sort of pressure behind it. I operated the pump by hand at varying speeds including speeds definitely far faster than it sees when the engine is cranking, and got basically nothing.
-Vacuum gauge on the inlet side shows nothing, not even needle twitching.
-Not relevant but something I tried: vacuum pump on the inlet side revealed that the check valve does work.
-Thumb sealing over the outlet side did not detect any air or fuel or anything trying to get past it.

This is not a scientific analysis nor the most accurate way to come to this conclusion, but I think I'm condemning the pump. I suspect the diaphragm is torn, allowing fuel entry into the crankcase. The carb extreme rich issues have existed the whole time I've had the car, but it never "made oil" until now.

The pump is not particularly expensive, just need to get my hands on one. Carb efforts will likely commence this weekend. I really would like to drive this car at least a little bit this summer.

There was a time when the RockAuto catalog (and, in fact, other vendors too such as AutoZone) understood that these cars could still have a carb in 83 with a 302, but they have "fixed" that. To find the pump, I now have to select an 82 with the 255. The 351 pump has a return line, the 302+255 pump does not.

Driver power window is dead. I think I had an issue with the magnets coming unglued in this motor before, and maybe it has happened again.

[kishy]

Today, I called a conveniently-located O'Reilly location in Detroit and had them order the pump (Precision M23064) from their warehouse so it'll be there for me tomorrow. Getting equivalent ones on this side of the border is a more expensive proposition, as is often the case.

Tonight, I pulled the carb off the car and disassembled it. I tested the float in the bowl, and verified that it does successfully close the needle valve at a reasonable fuel level. I also verified there was no junk in the needle valve, and that it seemed to seal reasonably. The carb overall is definitely full of lots of goo, but these parts of the system seem to be OK, which suggests the fuel in the oil probably came from the pump. This did run very rich, but not enough to smoke at idle after the choke started opening up.



















As it happens, someone has messed with it before, at least the idle mixture screws. The tamper-resistant caps had been pried off. The screws took just over 2.5 turns to seat.

The throttle shaft has a small amount of wiggle at the choke linkage end. I don't think it warrants bushing it at this time, but I'm giving it consideration. It won't somehow get less loose over time.

This carb is significantly more "friendly" to take apart than the Carter YF-A that the Ranger had. I seem to recall the float hung off the air horn/top cover part, which made for a frustrating time. This, it almost looks like I could have it run with that top cover removed.

It's all sitting in a tub of carb cleaner. Solvent smells were kinda giving me a headache so I took a break to mow the lawn, and decided to put this all away for the night. Presumably, my metal parts will still be there in a day or two when I get back to this. I had also hoped to do some parts boxing in the garage but the headache put the brakes on that.

[sly]

woof. that's a lot of crud in there.

[gadget73]

Say whatever else you may about Holley carbs, one aspect of their design that I think is just head and shoulders superior to everything else is the float height setup. Pop the screw out of the side, adjust the seat height with the external screw until fuel is just even with the bottom of the hole on the side of the carb. No measurements involved, so the specific shape or material used for the float doesn't matter.

and yes that is a lot of gross in that carb. I have seen good results from ultrasonic cleaning, just in case you happen to have one of those. Boss stuck a Webber 2bbl from his sister's Jeep in our US cleaner and it came out noticeably shinier than what it did after soaking in the carb solvent bucket.

[jaywish]

Even the old holley single barrel 1910's had a small inspection cover in the top of the bowl that let you measure the correct height by sticking a ruler in the hole.

[kishy]

Today, I called a conveniently-located O'Reilly location in Detroit and had them order the pump (Precision M23064) from their warehouse so it'll be there for me tomorrow. Getting equivalent ones on this side of the border is a more expensive proposition, as is often the case.

Uh...right. So I arrived at 5pm to the store with hours posted till 9pm to find it very completely closed with not even a sole lingering staff member. Needless to say, I was not interested in completing the sale at that establishment anymore.

Turned out that a specific AutoZone store which is also a distribution centre (Middlebelt & Schoolcraft) did have an appropriate pump, for only a few dollars extra, and would be open (actually) until midnight. I wandered over that way and got my pump.

This evening, I tackled the hands-on cleaning and reassembly of the carb. I feel pretty good about it and am expecting favourable results when it goes on the car.

I had the presence of mind to test if the original choke pull-off worked, and it actually didn't, all the vacuum that goes into it (or...comes out?) leaks through immediately. This is another part I bought years ago which has become much harder to get now. It was purchased in April 2014, from RockAuto, for $4.31. It is a Standard (Hygrade) CPA241.

Carb and fuel pump will go onto the car one day this week.

[Kodachrome Wolf]

Cleaning and rebuild job looks good!

[kishy]

Oil changed. I didn't realize this at first, but it only had about 20km on it. However, it was totally black with a gasoline sheen on the surface, poured like water, and smells more like gas than oil. Yeah, that's a problem. New oil but reused the filter.

Got the new fuel pump installed. The engine had stopped in a position that had the pump partially depressed, so I barred it over by hand to get the cam turned to a more favourable position for installation. This job is much easier with the oil filter absent.









Reinstalled the long-absent cruise control servo. I had removed it for diagnostic parts-swapping on the wagon a while back.

Installed the carburetor, installed the fuel filter, connected everything, and ran to the gas station for some premium. Put 25L in the car. It wasn't fully empty previously, but was low, and the 25L brought the gauge up to exactly 1/4". Being that this is a new sending unit, it's nice to see it working.



Cranked the engine (no ignition, only starter) with the fuel line unthreaded from the filter at the carb until I had gas coming out = confirmed pump is working as desired.
Connected the line and cranked (with ignition) for a while, no detectable firing happening, but eventually the bowl vents overflowed quite a bit.
Took the top off the cab, verified 1) the float and needle moved freely and 2) the needle seems to be seated when the float is at the top of its range of travel.
Took the float out and adjusted it down some. The adjustment before should have been correct but it seems that the needle isn't seating firmly enough so this seemed like a reasonable approach.
Same thing, bowl vents overflow.
Found that if I give it a little pedal while cranking, it will start and run very rich. If I attempt to let it come down to idle-ish RPM (must keep throttle open slightly or it'll stall), the bowl vents overflow, but if I give it more pedal, the vents stop overflowing (obviously the gas is momentarily diverted to the intake).

I am not super happy about how all aspects of the needle, seat and float are interacting together. I'm not convinced the needle is actually seating and I think it has something to do with the thin wire hardware that hangs the needle off the float. I think that hanger hardware is preventing the needle being pushed adequately into the seat. I may be way off, but that's what it looks like may be happening. I may put the original needle and seat back in just to see what changes, if anything. It's pretty doable in-vehicle.

It does seem to be overfueling in general but at the moment I'm not touching anything "tuning" related until I can stop the bowl from overflowing. That is definitely a problem.

[jaywish]

Sounds like you are on the right track the gas to bowl should shut off when the float rises.

[GM_Guy]

Got the spring/hanger thing on the needle hanging correctly on the float?

On A Qjet theres a right way and a wrong way, if its the wrong way you get a good chance of flooding it as the offset is just enough to prevent the seat from fully seating. If you look at it, the wrong way is what most people think is the right way and if eyeballing it, or working it with your finger it looks and behaves normally.. until you try to run it. Flip it around and your back in buisness. The other wrong thing people do in the qjet is hang the needle through the little hole that is on a qjet float. Depending on hole location you will quickly discover it don't go that way, but some floats have the hole in spot that like the first instance, cocks the needle over just enough to give you trouble when you feed it fuel. Most people do that becuase they think its an easy way to keep the needle hanging on the float. And a lot of time stupid little things like that end up giving the qjet a bad rap. Good for me though, I'll always accept a free "junk" q-jet.

Having said all that, I got no idea how your carb hangs together, so just a derailment for qjet people. =-)

[gadget73]

I suppose it might be worth verifying fuel pressure but unless something is really bonkers a mechanical fuel pump shouldn't be capable of putting out enough to overwhelm the needle.


With all that gas in the oil the inside of the engine ought to be fairly well de-sludged at least. Gasoline is a pretty effective solvent.

[Tiggie]

I know you've checked some of these. A sunk float, dirt in the needle valve seat, the float hanging up in the bowl, or fuel pressure, assuming it's put together right and the parts aren't defective. I've had it happen on dirt in the seat.

I am pretty confident you can run the 2150 without a top. It will try to blow the needle valve out with it running, so hold the float retainer down while someone else starts the car. Maybe you can see what it's up to.

Once you get that fixed, the 2100/2150/4100 can start sucking fuel through the boosters if float level is too high. They are supposed to be 100% dry at idle. That might explain some of the rich if the fuel bowl is full.

The 2150 on my dentside truck is amazing. Best starting/running carb I have ever experienced.

[kishy]

Studied the float, needle, and hardware. It was definitely all together correctly. Couldn't make any sense of the problem so just swapped the original needle and seat back. Cranked engine with the top off of the carb. Seems to work correctly. Didn't try swapping back the new parts, figured I'll just leave it alone since it works.

And with that, we have an engine that will start and run, and even kinda idle sometimes. Very rich though. Areas of concern are:
-the correct amount of choke pull-off (currently just enough to fall off the highest idle setting, and this does not represent much movement at the choke plate)
-all choke-related adjustments; it seems to have too much choke at all times. Function of the choke thermostat has been verified.
-idle mixture screws, and the same problem I had with the Ranger: why do they not seem to do anything? Threaded them in to seat and it kept running exactly the same. Idle must be set too high, but there's no lower it could be and still run.
-ignition timing. I had it around 17BTDC (vacuum advance unhooked, idling just above stalling). Tried to bring it back to 10ish but shocked the hell out of myself fighting (straight across the chest) with a thoroughly stuck distributor and decided I was done for the night.

But, it ran enough to pull it out to the street and turn it around so it's facing a better direction to play under the hood.

[kishy]

I know you've checked some of these. A sunk float, dirt in the needle valve seat, the float hanging up in the bowl, or fuel pressure, assuming it's put together right and the parts aren't defective. I've had it happen on dirt in the seat.

I am pretty confident you can run the 2150 without a top. It will try to blow the needle valve out with it running, so hold the float retainer down while someone else starts the car. Maybe you can see what it's up to.

Once you get that fixed, the 2100/2150/4100 can start sucking fuel through the boosters if float level is too high. They are supposed to be 100% dry at idle. That might explain some of the rich if the fuel bowl is full.

The 2150 on my dentside truck is amazing. Best starting/running carb I have ever experienced.

I had already wrote most of the prior reply before I saw this.

Best guess on the needle and/or seat is there's some design deficiency. No debris but it didn't want to seal. I dunno. Resolved as above, original parts went back in. I have another new one but kinda done messing with that particular aspect.

I observed the "trying to blow the needle out of it". Didn't run it with the lid off but did crank it. That was exciting.

Are the boosters the inward-facing holes around the perimeter of the inner venturi assembly? Sorry for terminology issues. If that is them, yes, they are dribbling fuel.

I do get the impression the bowl is too full. Need to recheck float height since parts-swapping. It's also at what I'd call the extreme of its adjustment so some creative re-bending will have to happen.