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Thread: kishy's 1983 Grand Marquis 2dr

  1. #61
    The Brown Blob 87gtVIC's Avatar
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    Wow I think that timing cover was eaten over time. I recently pulled some t stat housings that were severely corroded like that.

    Nice work.

    I hear you on the bolts kits. I ordered two bolt kits for mustangs and still did not have all the pieces I needed. JY harvests helped out the rest.
    ~David~

    My 1987 Crown Victoria Coupe: The Brown Blob
    My 2004 Mercedes Benz E320:The Benz

    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    But, that's just coming from me, this site's biggest pessimist. Best of luck

  2. #62
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    thats ugly. Surprised it sealed.

    it may not have rolled, those things get pretty sloppy without a lot of miles. It just wasn't a durable design.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  3. #63
    all the CFI are belong to me
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    This is my 4th time doing this (84 x2, 85, now 83) and I hate it the same or more with each additional time I do it. What a terrible, antiquated design. Old sealing tech was just...bad.

    But anyway. Eliminated smog pump. Replaced timing set. Installed thoroughly sandblasted, washed, thread-chased and RTV'd timing cover. Installed painted, new, cast iron water pump (yes the one I took off was aluminum, and yes that was causing leaks). Partially re-attached A/C compressor (is inoperative currently). Re-attached power steering pump and alternator. Installed radiator (big chunky one from the junk Town Car). Installed coolant. Seems like it doesn't leak but haven't ran it up to temp yet.

    Still to do, oil change because a lot of coolant is in the pan.

    I take back my comment about the hardware, it cleaned up adequately. Did use new hardware for a few spots. I realize what I forgot to do, of course, which is RTV the threads on a couple of the water pump studs...if a leak develops I'm going to be irritated but at least I know to watch for it.
























    83 GM 2dr POTM 10/2019 | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 & 4/2019 | 85 CS | 85 Ranger +trlr | 86 GM | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards
    Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC

  4. #64
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    do you have a complete set in any condition that can be used for measurements? Another thread on here talked about a supplier of stainless ones that worked with him to assemble a kit for his specific setup. Having a brain fart, but dude with a '79 351 car. Only set I've got are in my engine and for obvious reasons I'm not super motivated to extract them.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  5. #65
    all the CFI are belong to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget73 View Post
    do you have a complete set in any condition that can be used for measurements? Another thread on here talked about a supplier of stainless ones that worked with him to assemble a kit for his specific setup. Having a brain fart, but dude with a '79 351 car. Only set I've got are in my engine and for obvious reasons I'm not super motivated to extract them.
    I do not, but I think I can work backwards to figure it out. I didn't put the front A/C bracket back on, so the pump is somewhat available from that side for measurements and guesstimates. At work now and it's pouring out so unclear how much I can figure out tonight, but off the top of my head:

    The hardware in Dorman 23744 is correct, but you need multiple of it (plus other bolts like the inboard ones for a cast iron pump) and it gets costly to do that. The longest bolt they provide replaces the longest stud by the water inlet; no meaningful function is lost by it just being a normal bolt.

    I'm thinking for a full job you would need:
    (cast iron pump has total of 9 pieces of hardware not counting the ones that come with the pump for the plate)

    3x Dorman 23744: gets you the 3 medium-length studs that go from pump, through timing cover into block.
    Also gets you 3 (need only 1) of the extra-long bolt for water inlet area.
    Also gets you 3 (need only 2) of the short-length studs that hold the pump to the cover.


    1x some length of normal 5/16-18 bolt for in between the small hose connections, could probably substitute the surplus short stud from above and grind off the stud part if it's a problem.

    2x some length of normal 5/16-18 bolt for the cast iron-specific holes


    There is probably an argument to be made that studs are not strictly required at all but I bet we will find out exactly how fragile the cast aluminum brackets are if we eliminate them.

    Oh, I forgot to mention and pics don't show it: I had to take the grinder to my alternator bracket to make it fit the cast iron pump, so maybe this car was assembled that way (aluminum pump on the timing cover with the surplus holes) from the factory. The pump I removed is a Ford original pump but could be reman.
    Last edited by kishy; 06-23-2020 at 10:47 AM.

    83 GM 2dr POTM 10/2019 | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 & 4/2019 | 85 CS | 85 Ranger +trlr | 86 GM | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards
    Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC

  6. #66
    all the CFI are belong to me
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    Water pump hardware aside for a moment...

    I attempted to change the oil last night, but came inside to eat while it was draining, dozed off on the couch, and woke up at 11pm...not helpful.

    Completed the oil change today. 65,279km. Last change seems to have been in October of 2014, roughly 750km ago. As I've mentioned, I really don't drive this much.

    Runs great. Figured out why it seems peppier than all of my *FI cars...base timing is 20BTDC. Doesn't knock or anything, so I'm leaving it where it is. Carb does need love still.

    I don't seem to have introduced any new leaks through the work I've just completed, and it seems I successfully fixed the ones I set out to eliminate. Big chunky rad is big and chunky.

    Took it out for gas, filled to the top with 91 (re: going ethanol-free in this one), seems there are no fuel leaks either. Bonus, I finally got to see the fuel gauge pegged on full for the first time owning it.



    Fancy new washers for the drain plugs...need to get more of these.



    Oh, and the old timing set...on close inspection, it actually looks pretty much brand new, just with a stretched chain. Leaning back towards odometer not rolling over. Between that and the severity of the water pump gasket failures suggesting it may have been factory...yeah. Kind of kicking myself over the water pump stuff, that may have been significantly easier had I done it when I got the car. Oh well, done now.

    Drain plugs. This car has matching 22mm (like a sloppy 7/8"), 1/2"-20 drain plugs. The heads on these (the 22mm hex) are significantly bigger than on all my other boxes. I find them annoying because my preferred oil change socket set goes to 19mm, but that's fairly minor. Do we think the 22mm headed drain plugs are the original type? Is this an early vs late year thing?
    Last edited by kishy; 06-23-2020 at 09:05 PM.

    83 GM 2dr POTM 10/2019 | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 & 4/2019 | 85 CS | 85 Ranger +trlr | 86 GM | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards
    Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC

  7. #67
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    surprised its a metric head on a 1/2-20 bolt. I'll vote non-original on that

    89-89 ALL D6TZ-6730-A is what the master parts manual calls for to be used on everything with a 302 or a 351.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  8. #68
    2 decades of DDing Box Panthers, now in a Whale VicCrownVic's Avatar
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    Until I bought The Ice Car, all of my boxes had the 7/8" (I suppose they may actually have been 22mm) head drain plug. It really threw me off when I changed the oil the first time and found a smaller head than what I had ever seen (more than a decade around boxes at that time). Any chance this larger head drain plug may have been the typical service replacement part?
    Vic

    ~ 1998 Mercury Grand Marquis LS - new DD
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis LS "The Scab" - plenty of rot, summer DD
    ~ 1997 GMC Yukon - wannabe winter DD - returning summer 2020, I finally have an engine
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis GS "The Ice Car" - Rotting Retired Winter DD
    ~ 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis GS - Rotting Retired DD
    Gone but not forgotten:
    ~ 1988 Country Squire ~ 1987 Ford Crown Vic

  9. #69
    all the CFI are belong to me
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    It may be 7/8"...I just find 7/8 a bit sloppy on it and 22 fits nicer. I only wondered because of the mileage. Of course when a drain plug gets stripped from overtightening, it will be replaced with whatever is available, and the likelihood a) that a Ford dealer would do that (necessitating it being dealer service relatively late in its life) or that b) a third party would buy a Ford drain plug just doesn't seem high. Not really important but I had wondered about it on a few occasions, all of them being when I've been under the car and looking at the weird things.

    As noted above, took it to a gas station, filled to the top, all good or so it seemed. Checked today and found it left a very small puddle. JB Weld Steelstik repair is leaking, so it must not have properly set/cured because fuel tank repair is a specific application they recommend the product for.

    Drained tank from the line at the mechanical fuel pump, using an electric fuel pump into gas cans. Tossed the original fuel sender from this car into the Evaporust bucket and will see if I can salvage it. Car is driveable but I can't fill it very high to avoid leakage, but that being said it's nothing like it was before the patch.

    83 GM 2dr POTM 10/2019 | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 & 4/2019 | 85 CS | 85 Ranger +trlr | 86 GM | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards
    Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC

  10. #70
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    Some late 89 and I think all 90+ were metric thread drain plugs, 19mm sounds right for that.

    I think my Towncar uses 5/8 head bolts but its been a while. I know they aren't original, I put them in. I know its 1/2-20 thread tho.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  11. #71
    2 decades of DDing Box Panthers, now in a Whale VicCrownVic's Avatar
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    My '89 MGM, build date 03/89, had the large head drain plug.
    The Ice Car, build date 11/90, has the small head. The Scab, build date 04/90 ('91 MY), has the large head. The Scab had about a quarter million miles on it when I bought it. There is a chance it came to me with a non-original oil pan (which might explain why the gasket was messed up a couple years ago).
    My '88 Country Squire, '87 CV, mom's '87 Country Squire, mom's '88 MGM all had the large head drain plugs.

    Interesting to know about the '90+ having metric thread drain plugs. RockAuto listings seem to support this. The drain plugs I ordered for The Scab were wrong (metric threaded plug, 1/2-20 hole) so I thought the listing was wrong (yeah, I just ordered without verifying what I had), but maybe that pan is not original to that car.
    Vic

    ~ 1998 Mercury Grand Marquis LS - new DD
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis LS "The Scab" - plenty of rot, summer DD
    ~ 1997 GMC Yukon - wannabe winter DD - returning summer 2020, I finally have an engine
    ~ 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis GS "The Ice Car" - Rotting Retired Winter DD
    ~ 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis GS - Rotting Retired DD
    Gone but not forgotten:
    ~ 1988 Country Squire ~ 1987 Ford Crown Vic

  12. #72
    all the CFI are belong to me
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    Jumping back to the fuel sender stuff...

    Being a factory carb 302, non-return car, this uses the sending unit with integrated fuel pickup tube, and no return line fitting. E0AF-9275-DA is correct for this car.

    When I had the junk 83 Town Car, I found it had the same sending unit (don't recall if same revision, but functionally same at least). I had swapped its tank and sending unit into this car, as they were in visibly better shape. The sending unit from the 83TC turned out to leak through rust pinholes through the mounting plate/disc piece. I patched it with JB Weld Steelstik but it continued to leak, and I still have not resolved that, which caused the car to be parked when I really kind of wanted to drive it more this year...oh well.

    The original sending unit from this car was tossed in some Evapo-Rust, and honestly, I kind of forgot about it. I have now cleaned it up significantly, verified it is 100% working, but it needs metal work...and I'm not sure it's really worth it, because as much as I can fix/restore/improve the condition of some areas of this, I think it's on borrowed time at this point.

    I have inquired with Herko, the company making a new-production replacement for the EFI sending unit, if they will consider making this one. I am not optimistic about their response, but it's possible they might go for it. There is one NOS example of the exact correct part on eBay currently, for way more money than I am willing to spend on this part. There are multiple of the return line version of this part, which I can use and just block the return line off, but they too are beyond what I'll pay for this part. With significant dedication and time/effort investment, I could make this thing myself.

    Photos show the sending unit after sandblasting. Evapo-Rust does not get the metal clean like this.











    Hoping that Herko agrees to make it...if they don't, I'm not really sure what route I want to take here.

    83 GM 2dr POTM 10/2019 | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 & 4/2019 | 85 CS | 85 Ranger +trlr | 86 GM | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards
    Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC

  13. #73
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    on the one with pinholes, maybe you could clean it really well and silver solder over the whole surface to plug the holes. Of course if its that thin the heat might just burn away the remains of the steel. I've had that happen on brass radiators that were just rotted away to nothing. The plastic connector would also be a problem. I don't expect it would appreciate the heat.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

  14. #74
    all the CFI are belong to me
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    I do think brazing or soldering is an option to get both of these into better shape. The one I have out of the car, pictured above, is original from the 83GM. The fuel line itself is actually pinholed through, but didn't leak when in the car (but did have a drainback issue, almost certainly related - lack of leak probably because that line is under suction when the engine is running). The one in the car is original from the 83TC and in terms of the fuel line itself is fine (is the one I somehow managed to solder a new line onto), but the mounting plate is bad.

    Maybe the answer (to not apply heat) is to chip off the JB Weld Steelstik, clean the metal up very well, and then use a gasoline-safe epoxy on it.

    Herko got back to me. They are not interested in producing this part currently. They did say it is not impossible they might begin making it in the future. I do not know where the Herko items are made, or if they even make them at all. I have found there is a Chinese company popping off some of these parts and that makes me suspect that's where they're coming from. At 20 bucks or so, with a minimum of 50 per order, it's out of reach for people like us...but very reasonable and profitable for the multitude of companies out there that sell this type of thing.

    Spectra Premium has also commented on the matter. They are exiting the fuel sender and pump hanger market in the US entirely. They will continue to be in this market in Canada for a while, with an uncertain future. The rep I spoke with didn't sound too optimistic that they would be developing any new product, considering them leaving that market.

    I suspect that if we do some math wizardry, the market demand for this particular sending unit is probably "relatively zero" if we consider factors like how many of the cars were produced relative to how many owners are seeking the part. If anyone knows a manufacturer that might consider taking this on, they'd have the market cornered, but it would take a long while to move quantity of the product.



    edit: I'm looking very closely at the 69-72 Full Size Ford sending unit, in 5/16" version (seems big block cars got a 3/8" version of the same). I think it might be the same part, just a little shorter, which would reduce usable fuel capacity but still be a usable part...and new reproductions of it are still being made. I'm trying to find a way to see one in person and lay it out next to mine for measurements and photos. Resistance range is not a major concern to me here, that can be corrected, but the overall assembly being made of new unrusty metal is the priority.
    Last edited by kishy; 11-10-2020 at 07:52 PM.

    83 GM 2dr POTM 10/2019 | 84 TC POTM 1/2017 & 4/2019 | 85 CS | 85 Ranger +trlr | 86 GM | 91 GM POTM 12/2017 | Junkyards
    Gone: 97 CV | 83 TC

  15. #75
    I'm an air-conditioned gypsy gadget73's Avatar
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    I was actually going to suggest older vehicles and modding the pickup tube if needed. The plate is the critical part, the lines can be modified. Extending them could be done in a few ways, none of them all that hard.

    86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
    5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley

    91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC SE, triple black (Timewarp) - poly front bushings, KYB struts and shocks, Holley SystemMax1 lower intake, SilverFox AOD valve body,

    1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal

    Quote Originally Posted by phayzer5 View Post
    I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers

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