CFI Misfires/drivability issues

[kishy]

Hey GMN!

For whatever reason, I tend to post more on "the other 3 letter Panther forum", or the Facebook group for GMN, but rarely in the actual GMN forum...so here I am, hoping to find the answer to my ongoing problems. I'm sorry for the overlap/crossposting, and I'm sure at least some of you are seeing this discussion in all 3 places, but I'm running out of options and I figure if anyone is well versed in the problems of CFI, they're here...

This is going to be a long one...but hopefully detail will help pinpoint what my problem is.

Earlier this year I bought a 1984 Town Car, which has the EEC-IV CFI 5.0. The car ran like complete garbage when I bought it, needed to be 2-footed to get it home, and in retrospect, a lot of what it was doing then is similar to what it's doing now. It needed body work and intake gaskets, so it sat on the back burner slowly getting this and that done to it until October when I finally started driving it.

Discussion threads in the order they occurred (or just follow the bullet points in summary):

• EEC-IV CFI Stalls when attempting KOER test
• CFI drivability issues? Check your alternator! (where I thought I had fixed it with alternator, then found bad fuel pump)
• Do these codes mean bad ECM?

• Prior to October (also prior to driving car again since bringing it home) replaced intake gaskets, ECT, ACT, O2, plugs, wires, cap/rotor
• Went over every inch of vacuum line in the whole car, including in the dash. Patched/replaced all sources of leaks. Capped off things not readily repairable (like the vacuum motor the air cleaner). Engine makes 20-21 in-hg of vacuum ever since. The HVAC control head still has a small leak when in the off position but it bleeds down very slowly.
• EGR was opening at a funny angle causing pintle to jam in the bore while closing (= stuck open). Replaced with a junkyard one that does not have this problem.
• October, after trying to drive the car a bit, found it missing/hesitating/jerking, wanted to do self tests. Observed that KOER test caused engine to stall.
• Car had very high curb idle. 900-1300RPM. Taught the computer a more-correct curb idle speed (don't recall exactly where I left it, but around 600 hot idling in gear comes to mind)
• Soon after, observed that engine had misfire issues when hot and would stall at curb idle periodically.
• 60A 1G alternator blew one or more diodes. Replaced with reman and new regulator. 3G is in the future, but needed it back on the road. When the alt failed, I observed that all the drivability issues appeared suddenly, consistently and with extreme severity (misfiring, backfiring, bucking, jerking, and so on). I assumed at this point that flaky power supply had been the cause of my problems all along.
• Then, the problems came back (of course they did). Went to attempt KOER test, it started loping the idle really aggressively before I did. Went to trunk for the code reader, heard fuel pump through trunk wall. Didn't sound good. Checked pressure, was low. Priming was only making 7PSI, would run at about 25, spec is 35. Dropped tank, replaced pump and pickup screen, verified no debris in trunk, all back together. Making good pressure now and running a lot better.
• Intermittent misfire problems continue. Seemed to only be happening "above fully cold" but "below fully warmed" (130-180 degrees, ish).
• Cleared KAM, drove it for a week...did self tests.
  KOEO 11 11
  CM 24, 18, 22, 14, 18, 22
  KOER 21
  PIP/MAP/IDM codes were believed to have been set by a failed start where I had not set the fast idle first and it immediately died.
  Began questioning if perhaps ECM is bad, as the things causing the codes seemed not to actually exist.
  Cleared KAM.
• MAP, VRM, SPOUT (not whole TFI, just SPOUT) pigtails replaced.
• Verified the big resistor hanging off the wiring for the coil is in spec (21kOhms)
• Used small file to clean up ECT and ACT connector terminals, and pinched them tighter before reconnecting. After doing this and driving it a bit, all self tests come back 11 11.
• (this past Saturday) Replaced timing set as a "just in case". Was sloppy but not awful. Very confident I got it lined up right when reinstalling.
• Since it deserves its own bullet point: Saturday evening and all day Sunday, car ran awesome. Maybe an occasional part throttle miss but overall it was running great, maybe the best it has since I bought it.
• Monday, it all went straight down the toilet. Misfiring, bucking, jerking, stalling.
• Tuesday, same as above. In the evening after work, tried to check for basic issues that could come up suddenly like a connector undone or vacuum line disconnected, no luck.
• Wednesday, wouldn't start for drive to work. Took another vehicle.
• Wednesday evening, went poking around with wiring harness looking for problems. Pulled ECM out and looked inside for burnt or obviously failed components (e.g. bulging caps). Passed visually and the smell test. Threw it all back together. No electrical checks at this time, just eyes and nose.
• Observed that I had found melted wiring, suspected it was headlamp circuit due to location. Have since realized it's the feed back to the fuel pump. Old pump likely was pulling too much current. Other wiring all looked OK, but I didn't take apart all of the loom/wrap, just looked at it in various spots.
• Convinced car to run by bumping up the idle again, though it will not hold a steady RPM, so I was not able to re-teach the ECM the new higher idle speed. It's idling high because it's been mechanically adjusted to, but the computer expects idle speed to be lower. I know this is not ideal but it's running again. Even with it like this, when the stumbling occurs, RPM will come down as low as the 400s (free idling). If in gear holding the brake, it will come down as low as upper 200s before recovering into the 600s-700s. It will periodically stall in gear on the brake. Battery was out for a few hours, so everything was cleared. Took it out for a drive, let it get good and hot, still missing like crazy but not quite as bad as Monday.
• Self test results (based on maybe 100km of driving max)
  KOEO current 11, 11
  CM: 14 (PIP), 18 (IDM), 22 (MAP), 41 (lean), 51 (ECT circuit open), 63 (TPS below minimum)
  KOER: 16 (RPM too low for O2 test), 72 (MAP insufficient change during goose), 73 (TPS insufficient change during goose)
  However I did goose the throttle, and did so properly, so the computer is not getting the inputs it needs to recognize the change.
• Fuel pressure at prime is 35-40 PSI, and maintains about 35 while running (when it runs).
• TPS closed voltage (myth or otherwise) was 0.86ish, is now 0.995V, no difference.
• EGR is not stuck open.
• Even when running like garbage, engine is making 20 in-hg vacuum.
• Capped off everything vacuum except the MAP sensor, and it does the same thing.
• Pulled all plugs, all in identical condition, bit black but not fouled. Verified no arcing between wires. Wires routed to avoid crossfiring.

Current symptoms...

• Engine still runs great and pulls hard above half throttle. But, as soon as I stop accelerating and just try to maintain a speed, or slowly gain speed, the bucking and jerking comes back.
• PIP? Massive wiring fault somewhere? Exhaust isn't smoking but does smell rich enough to burn the inside of your nasal passages.
• Took entire engine harness out of car, unwrapped it entirely, studied it for any damaged wires. Checked resistance from ECM connector back to all the various wire ends. The harness checks out OK.
• VREF at the ECT is 4.63V. VREF at the TPS is 5.00V. Not sure if this represents anything...internal ECM voltage regulation problem?
• Checked O2 voltage, it's anywhere from +0.1V to +0.8V. The range seems OK, but how dramatically should it be flip-flopping?
• If SPOUT is disconnected, idles like a dream, including hot curb idle in gear (which is awful otherwise). However oxygen sensor voltage starts reversing into the negatives. Not even sure how that's possible, but O2 sensors are witchcraft, so...
• Seems to cold start OK, and as long as it's idling on the fast idle cam, idle is good, including applying a light load to the engine (curb idle, rolling down driveway, that type of thing). Heavier load (rev while on the brakes) will miss, even cold.
• Part throttle drivability issues will appear even while it's still cold. I haven't driven it with SPOUT disconnected but based on how it handles being revved in gear on the brakes as well, it seems smooth.

Please note that I do not want to SEFI swap this car. I have read up on what's involved and I feel 100% capable of doing it, but I don't want to go that way currently. I just want what it has to work as well as it does when it works (which is honestly a fantastically smooth drive). It keeps going through periods of being great then it does this again...

Please help me get this pig back out of my garage onto the road where it belongs

I've had an offer to ship me a 1984 CFI computer that was known to work several years ago, on Monday, in the event I haven't figured it out by then. So I guess I'd like to focus on figuring out if that's likely the culprit, but I'll really take any advice at this point.

And really, I get it. SEFI is smoother, more balanced, maybe more efficient, and so on. I understand it's a technically superior system. I just want this to work the way it is, though.

Thanks folks...

[pantera77]

I don't see anything about replacing the timing chain in there unless I missed it.
If it's bucking and jerking that's probably at least part of the problem.

I know you don't want to hear it, but the only place CFI belongs is in the dumpster, do a SEFI swap and never look back. Best thing I ever did to my old 85.

[DerekTheGreat]

Props to trying to keep it the way factory intended, despite however flawed it may be..


I had an '85 with CFI and can tell you that you still have EGR problems.. You need to rip the EGR back off and clean as much of the gick out of your manifold as you can and thoroughly clean the EGR itself. I found that cycling the pintle manually while spraying inside it with carb&choke or brake cleaner helps get it working free again. It shouldn't bind or get difficult at all to move as you cycle it manually.
Until I sorted out my EGR issues the car wouldn't idle at 600 rpm in gear hot, but at least I knew why the PO adjusted the idle so high! Also, these don't have an IAC so not that I'm an expert but I think it can only apply or take away so much vacuum to the dashpot that adjusts the idle. With my car that thing only worked when you hit the A/C, if it got real stumbly or were on the freeway cruising.

I would really look into either replacing that PIP sensor in the distributor & TFI module and then replacing the MAP sensor, O2 Sensor & Throttle Position Sensor.

[kishy]

I don't see anything about replacing the timing chain in there unless I missed it.
If it's bucking and jerking that's probably at least part of the problem.

I know you don't want to hear it, but the only place CFI belongs is in the dumpster, do a SEFI swap and never look back. Best thing I ever did to my old 85.

Timing set was done this past Saturday. The old chain had not jumped time but was getting sloppy. Nylon teeth were all intact still. 170k km (so just over 100k miles).

It drove great Sat night and all day Sunday. Then Monday, garbage.

From my understanding, it sounds like EEC-III CFI belongs in the dumpster, but EEC-IV CFI has hope. Or so it seems anyway.

All 3 of my boxes are getting engine goodies in the future, but for now I want the CFI working.

Props to trying to keep it the way factory intended, despite however flawed it may be..


I had an '85 with CFI and can tell you that you still have EGR problems.. You need to rip the EGR back off and clean as much of the gick out of your manifold as you can and thoroughly clean the EGR itself. I found that cycling the pintle manually while spraying inside it with carb&choke or brake cleaner helps get it working free again. It shouldn't bind or get difficult at all to move as you cycle it manually.
Until I sorted out my EGR issues the car wouldn't idle at 600 rpm in gear hot, but at least I knew why the PO adjusted the idle so high! Also, these don't have an IAC so not that I'm an expert but I think it can only apply or take away so much vacuum to the dashpot that adjusts the idle. With my car that thing only worked when you hit the A/C, if it got real stumbly or were on the freeway cruising.

I would really look into either replacing that PIP sensor in the distributor & TFI module and then replacing the MAP sensor, O2 Sensor & Throttle Position Sensor.

EGR is definitely good. I swear. I took it off last night (forgot to mention above), and it's very clean. There's nothing in there to clean out and the pintle is seating fully. It's very smooth and moves totally freely. This is the "rounded" pintle EGR valve, not the "cone shape" pintle EGR valve that the car came with. Both are E4 revision parts, oddly enough.

TFI and MAP have been swapped (and again, and again) with known-good. O2 was done (new) after I bought it, and replaced again last night, but both the old O2 and the new one give the same outputs so I think they're both fine.

TPS is also new, but both the new one and the old one test out OK watching voltage output as I slowly move the throttle by hand.

[DerekTheGreat]

I've got nothing then. I heard 1989LincolnTWNCar might be having luck with his SEFI car by swapping out the ECM relay, don't know if that old '84 has one of those though.

You sure you have the vacuum lines routed right? Some guy dicked mine up and had the red lines going where the blue ones ought to be based on the diagram. That also helped me out.

You set the timing where Ford wants it? What about the PIP sensor in the dizzy? That is what I believe actually fails, not the TFI. I have a complete dizzy from a 1990 TC, not sure if it will work with your set up though. Kinda want to keep it but I'd let you test run it to clear the PIP sensor from the "possible issues" list.

[kishy]

I've got nothing then. I heard 1989LincolnTWNCar might be having luck with his SEFI car by swapping out the ECM relay, don't know if that old '84 has one of those though.

You sure you have the vacuum lines routed right? Some guy dicked mine up and had the red lines going where the blue ones ought to be based on the diagram. That also helped me out.

You set the timing where Ford wants it? What about the PIP sensor in the dizzy? That is what I believe actually fails, not the TFI. I have a complete dizzy from a 1990 TC, not sure if it will work with your set up though. Kinda want to keep it but I'd let you test run it to clear the PIP sensor from the "possible issues" list.

Yup, there's an ECM power relay. Looks like the same weird proprietary type as some newer years of Box use. Seems to be good but I'll look at it a bit closer.

The newer dizzy will "work" except it'll eat the teeth off the cam gear (you'll notice when buying a dizzy new, it says to verify the metal type of the cam gear), otherwise I'd have swapped the one from my '91 in to see what would happen. I think the cutover for older/newer cam gears and therefore distributor gears is 1986 but not 100% on that.

I've studied the vacuum routing pretty extensively and it really does look right. Regardless, the same problems happen if I operate it with literally nothing except the booster and MAP hooked up (which I've done as a diagnostic effort).

Timing is 10 degrees BTDC with SPOUT disconnected, +/- a degree or two...the timing pointer could be slightly off but in any event it's not out by a large amount if it's out at all.

I'm on the fence about the PIP. Guy on CVN said it caused erratic issues in a 2.3. I don't see why the same couldn't be potentially true here. Might grab one this weekend and see what happens.

Worth noting that again - it runs GREAT if I thrash it around a bit. Just sucks when trying to drive like a typical Town Car driver.

[DerekTheGreat]

Hmm, that relay could be something to look into.

Oh yeah, that won't really work then haha.

That's a good idea, just isolating everything to narrow stuff down. I just happened to notice it looked OK until I got right up on it and noticed stuff wasn't right with it.

Welp, I've had my timing everywhere close to target so I'd say you're OK there.

Dudes on here have suggested to check the quality of the spark too. Based on what I've gleaned from trolling around here the PIP sensor tells the ECM what to do with the timing signal, if that's not working properly it will cut out..

Have you verified the voltage of your MAP sensor and TPS by checking what the ECM is seeing? I've only ever bench tested things before I threw them in the trash or spare parts bin. Could help determine if the ECM is a dud despite not looking fried.

[kishy]

Hmm, that relay could be something to look into.

Oh yeah, that won't really work then haha.

That's a good idea, just isolating everything to narrow stuff down. I just happened to notice it looked OK until I got right up on it and noticed stuff wasn't right with it.

Welp, I've had my timing everywhere close to target so I'd say you're OK there.

Dudes on here have suggested to check the quality of the spark too. Based on what I've gleaned from trolling around here the PIP sensor tells the ECM what to do with the timing signal, if that's not working properly it will cut out..

Have you verified the voltage of your MAP sensor and TPS by checking what the ECM is seeing? I've only ever bench tested things before I threw them in the trash or spare parts bin. Could help determine if the ECM is a dud despite not looking fried.

Quality of spark hasn't been verified, I only know that it is sparking (obviously, since it runs, lol). During the period of no-start I believe it was not starting due to AFR issues, not due to lack of ignition, as opening the throttle plate more got it to go.

I managed to find the PIP locally for less money than even buying it in Detroit, which is pretty rare (26 CAD vs 23 USD). I give a lot of money to American parts stores (and Parts Galore!) but not this time.

MAP feedback to the ECM is a frequency/pulse, I believe, and can't be tested normally with a normal meter. I have a MAP tester which basically converts the frequency output to a voltage or resistance (I forget), so it can be read on a normal multimeter. I have a stack of junkyard MAP sensors I keep as spares, all of which I've tested in the past and verified were in-spec. So in short, I'm using a good MAP and the other MAPs I've swapped out for in testing are also good. Or good "enough" that they shouldn't be doing this. I haven't verified what the ECM sees, but that's not really practical given the output type. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

(my newer pretty decent multimeter might be able to do Hz, since it has an engine tach function...so maybe I can verify what it sees)

Picking up (haha) the PIP tonight after work. Teaching myself how to take off the distributor gear after that. Then we'll know if that did it or not.

I hope it does...

[gadget73]

PIP, fuel pump relay and ECM relay would be my hit list. Check the connectors for both relays too, they can get pretty crusty. I also once had a problem with the inertia switch connector on mine. Its in the trunk, mounted to the hinge on the left side. If it hasn't been tripped in a decade or so, whacking that thing to force it to pop and then re-setting it probably wouldn't be the most terrible idea either.

You can use a tach to get an approximation of what the MAP output is. Its a variable frequency output, which is basically what a tach reads. A fancypants meter that reads directly is a better option if you can find the vacuum to frequency chart.

Its been my experience that when they go bad, they run better with the vacuum line unhooked vs connected. If yours goes pig rich and running shitty when you unhook the line, its probably good.

[kishy]

PIP, fuel pump relay and ECM relay would be my hit list. Check the connectors for both relays too, they can get pretty crusty. I also once had a problem with the inertia switch connector on mine. Its in the trunk, mounted to the hinge on the left side. If it hasn't been tripped in a decade or so, whacking that thing to force it to pop and then re-setting it probably wouldn't be the most terrible idea either.

You can use a tach to get an approximation of what the MAP output is. Its a variable frequency output, which is basically what a tach reads. A fancypants meter that reads directly is a better option if you can find the vacuum to frequency chart.

Its been my experience that when they go bad, they run better with the vacuum line unhooked vs connected. If yours goes pig rich and running shitty when you unhook the line, its probably good.

PIP replaced. Relays seem to be fine but will check if there's a voltage drop on the load side of the relays. Connectors for them are surprisingly good looking, terminals show no corrosion. Full battery voltage at the supply side of both relays. MAP has been swapped a few times chasing this, so yeah, I don't think the issue is there.

The PIP I took out is a Ford OE part, with an E8 part number. Started up easy, cold idled no problem. Stepped on the brake, put it in gear, no missing. Throttle at various positions while still on the brake (artificially load the engine), no missing. I did this cold, then about 140 degrees, 160, 180. Consistent all the way up to that point, running flawlessly.

Went to move other vehicle out of the way so I could take it for a test drive. In that time it made it up to about 190, hovering a bit below. I heard it miss (at idle in park) as I walked back to the car. Got in, revved it a little, still smooth. In gear, revved, same thing, still smooth.

Took it for a drive. Various throttle amounts. Smooth, smooth smooth. Hit the expressway. It's like as soon as I hit 100kmh it decided it was time to miss. Same behaviour as before, let off throttle to the point where you're just maintaining speed, jerks the whole car. Get back on it a tiny bit, continues jerking. Step on it more (kickdown or not) and it smooths out.

Off the expressway, now consistently missing at any speed following the same throttle pattern. Manually shifting I was able to replicate it at various spots in the throttle travel, so it's not a dead spot in the TPS for sure. It will happen at any throttle position as long as the pattern is met (maintaining or lightly accelerating).

So, PIP didn't fix it. Just gave me false hope because it ran perfect until it had a chance to be really fully hot, I guess.

Still getting a 51, this time, as a current code, not CM...but I was watching in real time and the circuit was not open. I don't understand why. Using the breakout box I was able to verify that the (in-spec) ECT voltage reading is making it all the way back to the ECM connector successfully. The wiring isn't broken. Maybe the sensor is opening the circuit internally for a split second here and there and the computer sees it?

Going to swap to one of my used spares and see what I get. But at this point I'm swapping stuff that's been swapped before, and seems to test out OK...

[kishy]

Cleared the KAM. Waited for it to cool off, then swapped out the ECT for one previously believed to be good. Went for a drive.

Exactly the same as before. Except happening cold again, unlike earlier drive when it waited until it fully heated up.

I realize the tests are only so meaningful after a short period of time, but here they are:

KOEO 11 11
CM 14 (PIP), 18 (IDM), 22 (MAP), 41 (O2 switching not detected?), 51 (ECT open), 54 (ACT open), 63 (TPS below minimum)
KOER 16 (IDM), 72 (MAP insufficient change in goose), 73 (TPS insufficient change in goose)

So, looks like this batch of codes wants to keep coming back.

To recap:
-PIP is new and engine runs same as it did with old one
-TFI has been swapped with no difference
-MAP is known good
-O2 is known to work (breakout box verified)
-ECT sensor believed good
-ACT sensor believed good
-TPS believed good
-Harness checked out OK

-I did goose the throttle (briefly from 0 to WOT) following the single flash of the dynamic response test, so 72 and 73 seem to just be flat out wrong.

Power relay yet to be verified, though, via breakout box I did see that the ECM power was full battery voltage, so that may be all the verification necessary...

Is the 1985 CFI ECM 100% plug and play with the 1984 harness? Junkyard has two 1985s, figure it might be worth grabbing one...assuming the unit I pull works, it would instantly answer the question of whether or not my ECM is screwy.

[A-drain]

I would double check ALL the connections. when the car is idleing good start bumping the harness around the engine bay and see if you get a miss after a certain bump. I did this when I was having problems and every time I hit the wires going to the TPS the car would miss it was a bad connection. Also anytime I have ever gotten a "buck" it was ignition related. I know your cap and rotor are recently replaced but make sure they are good quality parts. I once replaced my rotor with a brand new one that was "house brand" and immediately the car would "buck" when accelerating or just cruising. Swapped it out with a better brand and haven't had problems since. Personnely I would swap the whole distributor out with a new one if not reman. One that is supplied with the module and use motor craft rotor and cap on it.

[pantera77]

Since you don't want to do a SEFI swap, do the next best thing and put a carb on it, still an upgrade over Ford's shit tier CFI.

2150 is only a couple bolts away...

[sly]

the PIP could be bad. Seems lots of parts are bad out of the box lately.

[kishy]

Forgot to mention, returning home last night from the drive after the ECT re-swap, about 3 blocks away I pulled the SPOUT connector and drove it home like that. Not a single miss. Smooth as butter. I don't know how good it is for the computer to do this, or if it even cares outside of setting a code for it, but I unplugged and replugged it with the engine idling. Misses with it connected, won't miss with it unplugged.

When SPOUT is disconnected, I understand the computer does not alter ignition timing. What else changes about engine management when SPOUT is unplugged? Does it go into a failsafe mode and ignore certain sensor inputs re: fuel/air mix?

Would it be reasonable to infer from this that the computer is adjusting the ignition timing based on the inputs it sees (whether they're accurate or not, the ones it thinks it sees), and the timing is being adjusted so far out of whack that it's the direct cause of my actual problems?

Leaving for junkyard in an hour. If it's $20 wasted, I won't feel awful. I (internally, psychologically) need to cross the ECM off the list. It's tormenting me, lol. The plan is two 1985 ECMs, and a whole 1985 engine harness.

I would double check ALL the connections. when the car is idleing good start bumping the harness around the engine bay and see if you get a miss after a certain bump. I did this when I was having problems and every time I hit the wires going to the TPS the car would miss it was a bad connection. Also anytime I have ever gotten a "buck" it was ignition related. I know your cap and rotor are recently replaced but make sure they are good quality parts. I once replaced my rotor with a brand new one that was "house brand" and immediately the car would "buck" when accelerating or just cruising. Swapped it out with a better brand and haven't had problems since. Personnely I would swap the whole distributor out with a new one if not reman. One that is supplied with the module and use motor craft rotor and cap on it.

I'm feeling pretty good about the "mechanical" parts of the ignition system (plugs, wires, cap, rotor). Reason for this is that the car runs like a champ until it encounters some condition that makes it begin to run poorly. Seems a "mechanical" delivery of spark issue would exist all over the place, not just once that condition is met.

As for connections, I had pinched terminals tighter and cleaned them in all the connectors. I believe all the connections are good. However, there could always be a break in a wire that isn't visible from the insulation. I'll wiggle stuff around and see what happens. This harness is so simple and small, it would be really easy to replace wires in it, as long as the final couple inches at the ECM are a good basis to solder onto.

Since you don't want to do a SEFI swap, do the next best thing and put a carb on it, still an upgrade over Ford's shit tier CFI.

2150 is only a couple bolts away...

I have a 2150 in my 2 door which is parked for...well, until I have money to put a better engine in it. (maybe that's what you're referring to, take the carb off it...)

The Lincoln is a winter car. I feel like I probably don't want to deal with winter + carb + not knowing much about tuning carbs. My Ranger has a carb and I did eventually get it to run, though it spits black smoke and feels like it runs on 2 cylinders until it warms up a bit, so I really don't think carb is the choice for me. I don't see it as an inherent fault of carbs, I just recognize my limitations. I like electrical stuff. You know, when it functions in a logical way, unlike what's happening here.

the PIP could be bad. Seems lots of parts are bad out of the box lately.

What is the role of the PIP when SPOUT is connected vs when it isn't? Unless I'm mistaken, PIP is still going to be used to trigger the spark when SPOUT is disconnected.

I feel like flaky PIP, if related to my issues, would result in it still running bad with SPOUT unplugged. Reasonable assumption?
Accordingly I'm leaning towards the one I took out probably still being good also...