kishy's 1991 Grand Marquis

[87gtVIC]

Welding is not a skill that I would say I have at this time.
Tools, yes, skill, no, and everything I know on the subject says thin metal such as tubing is a hard job to do without destroying the workpiece when you don't know what you're doing

There is no o-ring on this pipe design, that's only the 86(?) design dual pipe setup if I recall correctly. This is a simple pipe fed by a rubber hose from the water pump. A simple rubber hose could replace the whole thing, realistically, and would actually make the coolant hose a fair bit more serviceable without removing the upper intake.

Ahh. I was definitely thinking about the dual pipe set up! Forgot the differences between the two.

[kishy]

it might be a running driving car again by Monday

Almost, but not quite.

I bolted the exhaust manifolds on, using the new hardware and gaskets.

I picked up one of my Walker 40492 (box Lincoln H-pipe) from storage and brought it home. Primed and painted the flanges (for rust resistance on the welds) with VHT.
Installed the cats, tight enough to hold their position but loose enough to be repositioned.
Removed the tailpipe and muffler, both being quite rusty, the tailpipe maybe being salvageable but the muffler certainly being scrap.
Bolted the H-pipe to the cats, pulling them into the proper positions.
Put a jack under the H-pipe to set it at the height I want, then tightened the cats to the manifolds.
Took out the jack, then undid the H-pipe to insert gaskets, then bolted it back on.
It fits very nicely. I have the same mufflers as the Town Car has in the mail presently. The Town Car sounds great - not loud, just the right amount of V8 sound.







I replaced the fuel filter. The one on the car probably dates to 2014.



An oil filter has been half prefilled and installed. The oil drain plugs have been installed.

The heater core hoses are new; the one to the pipe works but seems like it's probably not for this exact pipe setup (maybe the 86 setup).
The other line has been replaced with a single one-piece hose for an earlier non-ATC car, which being for an earlier year doesn't fit quite right but again, it works.
I have a large stash of cheap RockAuto closeout hoses so I try to use them up as I need them.





All wiring has been connected. The upper intake has been installed. All vacuum has been connected, made simpler by deleting the lines related to the thermactor system.

Cowl pieces and wiper motor have been reinstalled. Power steering bracket with pump, radiator, shroud, fan clutch and hoses have been reinstalled. TV cable has been tightened by about a 16th of an inch. There is a mark where it was previously in case I want to put it back.

All front end parts have been greased. Notably, u-joints have not been greased. I'll take care of that when the back half of the car is in the air for continuing the exhaust stuff.

Just needs oil and coolant, then it should be mobile again. I didn't just power through it tonight because I want to run a rad flush chemical in it, but the bottles I have on-hand warn not to leave them in aluminum for very long.




What thread do we think the tube nuts are for the transmission cooler lines on these cars post-quick-connect years? M13x1.25 looks to be it, I think. Looking at doing an auxiliary cooler and want some fittings so I'm not cutting the flare off.

[kishy]

Crank, no start.

Re-checked all the harness connections, looks good.
The grounds are present.
The ECM turns on the CEL with key on engine off, and the fuel pump primes.
Fuel pressure is just shy of 40psi.
Can't find a spark tester but timing light does not blink.
When engine cranks with fuel pump relay removed, the pressure does not drop. It seems to me the ECM is not seeing RPM and is not firing the coil or pulsing the injectors.

Swapped TFI, no change. Swapped whole distributor (I have an E7 one as a spare), no change. Wiring condition outside of the loom looks good, so it might be breakout box time.

KOEO test only gives 84, EVR failure. Seems unrelated, but OTOH the engine is below operating temp so I'm surprised I don't see a coolant temp code.

[Tiggie]

Be sure the black and white salt and pepper connectors are connected well.

[kishy]

Alright, well...it runs, but we have some pretty critical issues.

Recapping the evening:
I filled the crankcase with Rotella T6 5W40. I filled the radiator with some 50/50 mixed green stuff.

I can't recall the exact sequence of the disaster that was troubleshooting the no-start, but errors were made. The end result was 1) in troubleshooting, I had stabbed the spare distributor 180 degrees off (yeah, I have no idea how I managed that) and 2) replacing the ignition coil solved the no-start, but this was complicated by having introduced the distributor problem (2 causes for it to not start at the same time)

The original distributor is back in the car, with a used E6 Motorcraft TFI module. The module which was on the car for the last however many years became damaged while trying to get the distributor out as it was pretty tightly stuck in place, probably just a crack in the housing and no functional impact, but I didn't want to take a chance on it right now. I believe the coil was the problem but it's weird that the car drove into the garage on that coil. TAnyway...

I cleaned up the timing marks on the balancer because they were totally invisible. I set base timing to just a hint before 10BTDC - maybe 10.5 or 11ish. The engine idles smoothly and sounds healthy. There are probably additional exhaust leaks on the bodies of the cats being hidden by the heat shields but it is overall substantially quieter than it was with the rusted apart Y-pipe.

After shutting it off I poked my head underneath to check for leaks and was dismayed to find a few serious problems:

• Engine oil dripping heavily from the bottom of the bellhousing, appearing to originate from within the bellhousing. The entire seam where the inspection cover meets the plate on the back of the engine is wet with oil. There was no oil running down the backside of the oil pan. There was no oil running down the back of the engine above the bellhousing.
• Engine oil dripping heavily from the oil level switch hole on the oil pan. The leak is through the seam where the bung is welded into the pan. The pan is defective and must be removed.
• Engine oil dripping lightly from the front of the oil pan, where it dips down and meets the timing cover. Since the gasket is new and in good condition, and the pan bolts are torqued and pan is flat and installed correctly, this indicates the pan is defective by being shaped inaccurately in this area.

Given that Rotella T6 is fairly expensive and the oil is brand new, I recovered it into the original bottle for reuse, in order to stop the leaks for the night.

Looks like I'm redoing the whole thing, but I feel like I can knock it out pretty quickly. Just need to figure out what to do about the oil pan. The original did not actually rust through, it just looked pretty scary, so I'm going to clean it up and see how usable it is.

I'm absolutely beside myself about the whole thing. The clock is ticking fast for my road trip and this is the car I want to use. It'd be one thing if I was redoing something because of a screwup on my part, but a defective part stings a lot.

Another observation: there is no heat inside the car, and the engine ran long enough that there should have been. I initially suspected a failed ATC blend door actuator, but one hose to the core was hot and the other was not. This points to a plugged heater core, which seems plausible. Confirming what was suggested further up, I seem to have been mistaken and the hose/pipe to the water pump is the return, with hot coolant being supplied from the intake manifold fitting.

[DerekTheGreat]

Man, that's a big bummer about the oil pan and other leaks. If I had done all of the work you just did, I'd be tempted to set the car on fire..

I don't know that I'd want to use the original pan given the rust, they're pretty thin as it is. How's the pricing of used, good units on eBay?

[Arquemann]

When you get the shiny pan off, I wonder if there's any visible difference between the original and new one. I've been always adviced to use some rtv on the corners and arches of an oil pan.
Just watch my oil pan leak even worse when I get my MGM running again...

[kishy]

Man, that's a big bummer about the oil pan and other leaks. If I had done all of the work you just did, I'd be tempted to set the car on fire..

I don't know that I'd want to use the original pan given the rust, they're pretty thin as it is. How's the pricing of used, good units on eBay?

Yeah, it sucks.
I don't have time to source a pan from anywhere. I need to be driving the car today otherwise I simply don't have enough time to feel out its problems and catch up on all the other crap it needs before it can make a trip.

Calling around to the parts places to see if something can be sourced for tomorrow. If I yank the engine back out tonight, and have a pan in my hands tomorrow, I can be be in an alright spot.

Worst case, I hit the old pan with a hammer and if it stays intact, I put it back on. Without further salt exposure, it's unlikely to get worse.

When you get the shiny pan off, I wonder if there's any visible difference between the original and new one. I've been always adviced to use some rtv on the corners and arches of an oil pan.
Just watch my oil pan leak even worse when I get my MGM running again...

Will compare. I'm curious too. But I did notice that the one arch seemed too tall - correct width at the top, but too loose at the 6-o'clock position, if that makes sense.

The Fel-Pro PermaDryPlus gaskets typically include an instruction sheet that forbids using any type of sealant or gasket maker, as it prevents them sealing as designed. I'm fairly sure this one included the same instruction. Otherwise I'd certainly have been tempted.

[Arquemann]

The Fel-Pro PermaDryPlus gaskets typically include an instruction sheet that forbids using any type of sealant or gasket maker, as it prevents them sealing as designed. I'm fairly sure this one included the same instruction. Otherwise I'd certainly have been tempted.

Well, shit.
If I got such an instruction sheet with my felpro pan gasket, it should've had that said with a way bigger font!
Let's see how good results I get by doing what not to do...

[kishy]

Well, shit.
If I got such an instruction sheet with my felpro pan gasket, it should've had that said with a way bigger font!
Let's see how good results I get by doing what not to do...

Hmm...it's more nuanced than that.
Basically, don't slather the whole thing in it, but do use it in select spots: https://www.felpro.com/technical/tec...y-use-rtv.html

So I think you're probably fine and maybe in a better spot than I am.
But using it where suggested wouldn't have avoided my problems, as the arch under the timing cover isn't a spot you should have to use it.

My friend with a machine shop who builds engines is astonished that the gasket didn't seal. The blue Fel-Pro molded gaskets will apparently seal even the most imperfect, uneven, pitted surface easily. The pan must be stamped wrong.

New pan should be in his hands, via a parts store he has an account with, by 5pm today. He's about 40 minutes away, so a little drive time will be involved.

[VicCrownVic]

After shutting it off I poked my head underneath to check for leaks and was dismayed to find a few serious problems:

• Engine oil dripping heavily from the bottom of the bellhousing, appearing to originate from within the bellhousing. The entire seam where the inspection cover meets the plate on the back of the engine is wet with oil. There was no oil running down the backside of the oil pan. There was no oil running down the back of the engine above the bellhousing.
• Engine oil dripping heavily from the oil level switch hole on the oil pan. The leak is through the seam where the bung is welded into the pan. The pan is defective and must be removed.
• Engine oil dripping lightly from the front of the oil pan, where it dips down and meets the timing cover. Since the gasket is new and in good condition, and the pan bolts are torqued and pan is flat and installed correctly, this indicates the pan is defective by being shaped inaccurately in this area.

Given that Rotella T6 is fairly expensive and the oil is brand new, I recovered it into the original bottle for reuse, in order to stop the leaks for the night.

Oil from the bellhousing obviously will be the rear main or the flex plate bolts. Mine was weird and running down the front of the bellhousing inspection cover. Hopefully it's obvious once you get back in there what the source is. When you installed the rear main, did you also install one of those thin repair sleeve things? May not be needed in your case, depending on what you find.

Fairly certain the oil pan gaskets I installed were Fel-Pro Permadry, they were Fel-Pro one-piece for sure. I did use black RTV in the "corners" the 3 and 9 O'clock positions of the half circle drop in the pan rail for the crankshaft. The gaskets had little tabs to go up into holes in those spots, that's where I put the RTV.

Edit: Basically what the linked instructions say is what I did.

[Arquemann]

Hmm...it's more nuanced than that.
Basically, don't slather the whole thing in it, but do use it in select spots: https://www.felpro.com/technical/tec...y-use-rtv.html

So I think you're probably fine and maybe in a better spot than I am.
But using it where suggested wouldn't have avoided my problems, as the arch under the timing cover isn't a spot you should have to use it.

My friend with a machine shop who builds engines is astonished that the gasket didn't seal. The blue Fel-Pro molded gaskets will apparently seal even the most imperfect, uneven, pitted surface easily. The pan must be stamped wrong.

New pan should be in his hands, via a parts store he has an account with, by 5pm today. He's about 40 minutes away, so a little drive time will be involved.

Yeh, on mine the pan rails were kinda pitted and rough so I did a very light smear on them and small dabs in the corners of the timing cover and rear main. Smear on the arches of the pan was probably the most unnecessary thing to do.
I might not read instructions but I'm not dumb either. Excess RTV sucks balls.

Just an observation; the oil level sender hole in your chrome pan is very different from the stock pan and those cage nuts frankly look kinda shit.

On my engine the oil level sender was leaking internally, so I cut it in half and rtv'd it shut from the inside, rtv on the threads aswell as a copper washer. Initially I though about just getting a plug for it, but I wanted to plug the wire into something, even for looks. M20x1.5 seems to be a somewhat common thing in metric hydraulics, so pipe/blanking plugs are cheap and readily available from pretty much any industrial depot here in Finland.

Here's to hoping for leak free oil pans to all of us!

[87gtVIC]

Damn. Hope things turn around and you can get it sorted out for your trip.

[kishy]

11:30AM - cleared my schedule for the afternoon and booked the afternoon off work.
12:00PM - arrived home and ate lunch.
12:30PM - walked out to the garage and started tearing things apart.
2:40PM - engine suspended from crane fully removed from car.
3:00PM - the new oil pan is at my friend's shop and I'll be leaving to get it momentarily.

Not too bad.

Findings:

• As identified previously, yes, the welds around the bung have obvious gaps, which I should have been more suspicious of.
• The rear main seal is not leaking, nor are the bolts. The inside of the bellhousing is dry. All oil in that area was escaping from the pan gasket arch below the crank. It is not clear if it was originating from the corners and running down, or if it was originating from the bottom as I suspect due to not enough pressure on the gasket.
• The front is about the same as the rear but was leaking less.

On April 14, 2014 I purchased the chrome oil pan from Speedmaster's eBay account for $55.09 USD with free shipping. I have a feeling I won't be able to warranty it.

[kishy]

11:30AM - cleared my schedule for the afternoon and booked the afternoon off work.
12:00PM - arrived home and ate lunch.
12:30PM - walked out to the garage and started tearing things apart.
2:40PM - engine suspended from crane fully removed from car.
3:00PM - the new oil pan is at my friend's shop and I'll be leaving to get it momentarily.

Picked up the new pan. Ran the original pan in the parts washer at my friend's shop and verified that while no holes have gone through, the inside of the pan is mildly bumpy behind the deepest parts of the rust on the outside of it, so it's scrap and validates the whole process that's underway here. I salvaged the drain plugs and copper washers.







7:00PM - re-entered the garage
11:45PM - engine is fully re-assembled and fully re-installed in the car to the point that it was this time last night, minus coolant and oil.





Fluids and test run come tomorrow. Ultra Black "maximum oil resistance" RTV was used this time as well, very very lightly everywhere (overkill, but if allowed to fully cure before it gets oily, it should work fine) and bigger gobs in the corner areas. I can tell just from looking at it that the arches fit better (tighter, with more gasket squish).